the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cooran
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

FACT-CHECK - An interesting article:

Do Vegetarians weigh less and have lower risk of disease than Meat-eaters?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/p ... ss/5023984

With metta,
Chris
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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ben »

cooran wrote:Hello all,

FACT-CHECK - An interesting article:

Do Vegetarians weigh less and have lower risk of disease than Meat-eaters?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-17/p ... ss/5023984

With metta,
Chris
The verdict: PETA's claim is correct, but there's more to the story. A poorly planned vegetarian/vegan diet can result in nutritional deficiencies and other health problems, and it is misleading to suggest an absence of meat alone will bring about weight loss.
That, is what you call a "straw man".
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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manas
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by manas »

Hi everyone,
just a little input from an ex-vegetarian, I have recently begun working out a a gym, doing weight training to build up upper body muscular strength (if you saw how thin I am you would understand why I have to do this), and I must say that since I've been including modest amounts of fish and free-range chicken in my diet, that I seem to be improving not just in physical strength, but also in general wellbeing. I still think that if one can do it, one ought to be totally vegetarian, due to the suffering endured by animals, but maybe for some people, a bit of animal flesh in the diet is necessary to really thrive? In any case, once I've rebuilt my long-neglected physique, I intend to move back towards a vegetarian diet if I can, so long as I don't grow weak again in the process. (As an aside, I have experimented with eating some lamb also, but found it too 'heavy' for my system, and something seems 'wrong' about the taste, so I'm listening to my body, and not eating the flesh of mammals (pork is out of the question due to parasites, and beef is very unpleasant in my recollection, so I'm not even going there).
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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ben »

That is interesting, Manas. I have experienced the same response (increase in energy, well being) as a result of adopting a whole foods plant-based diet.
Kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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manas
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by manas »

Ben wrote:That is interesting, Manas. I have experienced the same response (increase in energy, well being) as a result of adopting a whole foods plant-based diet.
Kind regards,
Ben
'
'
Thanks Ben,

you have sparked an interesting memory in me. I can remember when I first met up with my old Hindu friends, and was moving towards a vegetarian diet, about 20 years back. I did notice that my mind and body sort of 'cleared up' as a result of adopting that diet. I will consider what you say once more. Maybe I could build up my body with just (free-range) eggs and yoghurt as the only source of animal protein after all, along with beans, nuts etc, despite what some people are telling me. I remember how once, I got these lamb chops and found pus in them...and how that was the 'final straw' for me, and how I adopted the vegetarian diet from then on...oh how that memory still makes me shudder a little inwardly.

kind regards

manas.
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

manas,
Are you saying that an instance of aversion is what precipitated your changing to a vegetarian diet?
chownah
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

Al Gore is finally a vegan. I say finally because he has always claimed to be this big-time environmentalist and numerous studies have shown that the biggest cause of greenhouse gases is the animal agriculture.
Known across the globe for his political career, Mr. Gore rose to even bigger fame with the release of his 2006 Oscar-winning documentary "An Inconvenient Truth"--which raised awareness about climate change.
That very same year, the United Nations released their report Livestock's Long Shadow, a groundbreaking study that shows animal agriculture creates more greenhouse gases than all the transportation in the world combined.
http://www.mfablog.org/2013/11/al-gore-goes-vegan.html
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Ben
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ben »

Gore will be a fantastic advocate for plant-based diets.
I wish him well with his culinary adventures.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Anagarika
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Anagarika »

I'm with Ben on this one. I've gone to a sole plant based diet, and have cut weight, have more energy, no lethargy from food consumption, and I'm guessing my blood pressure is lower. I just feel better, and do not miss animal meat at all; in fact, when I see a photo of a steak, I feel a bit sick and think of the poor cow or steer that was tortured and then killed before being cut up to make the steak. In the US, we treat our food animals so cruelly that I could no longer be part of this chain of cruel commerce.

I'm also observing 8 precepts each day, and while it can be challenging, the benefits of this lifestyle vs what I was doing five years ago are significant. I may add that I am over age 50, and feel that 8 precepts and a vegetarian diet are perhaps significantly easier in middle age than it would have been at age 25.
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greenjuice
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by greenjuice »

Manas, you can get enough protein without meat. I'm not too bukled up, but I do work out, and I'm fairly bigger and stronger then the average person. My diet is very simple, my main foods are whole-grain wheat flatbread and legumes- lentils and beans, from animal products I eat an egg, two or three a month, and drink a glass of milk or two a week. Besides that I eat only cereals (millet, rice, etc.), veggies and fruit, and I get enough protein for working out.

Also, my advice is to shun the gym. Exercise at home- squats, back extensions, twisting sit-ups, push-ups, pull-ups and the deadlift can all be done at home, they they exercise all the muscles, and are enough for everyone that is not a bodybuilder. If someone doesn't want to buy a home pull-up bar, he can use pretty much any park, also if one doesn't want to buy weights he can deadlift large stones he finds while out for a walk/run, but if someone can't or won't do those alternatives either- the pull-up and deadlift can be replaced with good-mornings, inverted row and elevated-feet inverted row, which can be done at homea. Also shun the gym workout program. Exercise every other or third day, and also make long pauses, e.g. work out for a couple of months, and then pause a month. Exercise hard (slow moves, no muscle rest in a series), use proper form (this is also a mindfulness exercise :D ), sleep enough and eat enough, and you can not only stop being thin, but also get reasonably big and strong.
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PsychedelicSunSet
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Monks and Veganism/Vegeterianism

Post by PsychedelicSunSet »

What are the rules regarding a Vegan/Vegetarian diet in the Sangha? I wish to ordain in the near future, however I've been a vegan for 7 or 8 years. How would this be handled? If I were to eat animal products I'd become very sick. Would I be able to retain a Vegan or possibly Vegetarian diet? If not, is this something I'd have to ween myself off of prior to going to a monastery, or would I be able to do so at the monastery? Any input would be much appreciated.



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Re: Monks and Veganism/Vegeterianism

Post by Boris »

In Thailand it may be a problem. I was layman, living in temple. I could manage to keep vegeterian diet by eating only fruits and rise. :smile: But it was big temple, so they have plenty of fruits, I do not know how is the situation in other wats. In Sri Lanka, as far as I know, there are quite a few vegeterian monks, and they have no problem with it. Sri Lanka is in range of Indian culture where vegetarian diet is obvious thing, while Thailand is rather more under China influence, and there vegerarian diet is something unusual.
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Re: Monks and Veganism/Vegeterianism

Post by Dhammanando »

PsychedelicSunSet wrote:What are the rules regarding a Vegan/Vegetarian diet in the Sangha?
Don't give directions or even drop hints to laypeople about your dietary preference, but just accept what you're offered and don't eat the meat.

An exception is Wat Pa Baan Taad and its branch monasteries, where even practising vegetarianism this way is prohibited (Ajahn Maha Bua condemned it as "Devadatta dhamma") and any monk discovered to be doing so will be immediately expelled.
Would I be able to retain a Vegan or possibly Vegetarian diet?
It depends how strict you are about it. If you're very strict then it's out of the question because most Thai dishes have at least a dash of fish sauce added to them while being cooked, so in rural Thailand you'd be reduced to living on rice and bananas. But the kind of vegetarianism where you just refrain from eating what is manifestly meat or fish is perfectly doable. For example, there is a vegetarian nun residing in my monastery and although we're supported by very poor mountain folk, on a typical day she'll get rice, forest leaf curry, mushroom curry, boiled bamboo shoots, an egg, noodles, bananas (and sometimes some other fruit according to the season), and sometimes a carton of soy milk.
Last edited by Dhammanando on Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monks and Veganism/Vegeterianism

Post by Sokehi »

In western monasteries it seemed to me a bit easier to follow a vegan diet. I have never encountered a non-vegetarian dish in the forest sangha associated monasteries in europe. But if - as it is you going down the foodline - you don't need to pick that certain dish that comes with cheese for example. But asking lay people what is in here what is in there should never been done. So I guess carefully that most of the time you might be able to live on a vegan diet, but still you should not cause any trouble around this.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Monks and Veganism/Vegeterianism

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

PsychedelicSunSet wrote:If I were to eat animal products I'd become very sick.
How do you know that if you have been a Vegan for eight years? Perhaps you wouldn't be sick as long as you ate only a little.

I do know that Burmese monks cannot digest dairy products as well as we can, and they may have health problems when eating Western food, just as I did in Burma when eating Burmese food.

I soon learnt to avoid certain foods that were guaranteed to make me very ill (a common dish was a sour soup that the Burmese love), and some compassionate supporters made an effort to provide more suitable (less oily) food for me.

It is allowable not to eat everything offered. In most monasteries and meditation centres I have stayed at, a whole selection of dishes are offered. In Mahāsi Yeikthā they arranged separate tables for vegetarian monks — there were often monks from Taiwan practising there.
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