the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
octathlon
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:06 am
Location: USA

the great vegetarian debate

Post by octathlon »

cooran wrote:
octathlon wrote:Hi Cooran,
I saw that article (in the OP) yesterday and found it very interesting so I googled for more details. It seems to come down to the amount of omega-3 (good) vs. omega-6 (not good) fat that we are taking in, and if we eat a lot of omega-6 it crowds out the omega-3, so even if you take a lot of fish oil or flaxseed oil to get your -3, it tathlondoesn't do much good if you still eat too much -6.
Here's a link to a blog of someone who has experimented with different diets and then compared blood chemistry results: http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/hap ... sults.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One interesting thing I read was that in spring/summer, animals (and people) would naturally eat the available leafy stuff (high -3) and in the fall/winter when they need to store fat for the winter, they eat the now-available seeds and nuts which are high in -6 and cause the metabolism to slow down and fat to be stored.

Anyway, I looked at what I ate and of course it was the opposite of what the Esselstyn diet recommends. For example I eat a lot of peanut butter, sunflower seeds, etc. and they are almost all omega-6 fat. I would like to figure out the healthiest way to eat but there is just too much conflicting info out there. I like the idea of experimenting with a certain diet for a while and observing the effects.

Since I would say food is one of the most significant areas of craving I have, I'm interested in learning to view food as simply fuel. The problem is, I think I am really just suppressing my cravings rather than actually letting go of anything. I believe there are specific meditations to help with this.
Hello Octathlon, all,

No need to be a vegan - in the Kitava study they looked at subsistence horticulturalists in Kitaka, Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea. The diet of these people is tubers, fruit, fish, and coconut which are staples – but dairy products, refined fat and sugar, cereals and alcohol are absent and salt intake is low. Of course, an article on a CNN website as linked to in the OP is only meant to give a ''heads-up'', and those who wish to know more will look further. That is how I came across the Kitava Study link - and I'm getting the book to look further.

with metta
Chris
??? You quoted my post but seemed to be answering/addressing something else.
Jhana4
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn will talk about plant-based diets tonight at 8 p.m. on CNN
http://www.heartattackproof.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

the great vegetarian debate

Post by PeterB »

1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque. A proportion is caused by non-preventable factors. Many of them hereditary.
2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.
3) Whatever the diet, mortality rates are currently running at 100%.
Jhana4
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

Jhana4 wrote:Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn will talk about plant-based diets tonight at 8 p.m. on CNN
http://www.heartattackproof.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I heard that this has been rescheduled.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

PeterB wrote:1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque.
Most of it in the developed world is and most of it is preventable with different choices.
2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.
Tell that to my father and his wife, they have both had bypass operations. I've seen what it has done to them.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

the great vegetarian debate

Post by PeterB »

When I said " to go" I meant just that. Not attempts to prolong life beyond its natural functioning.
A cardiac arrest is a good way to die, compared to most of the alternative ways to die.

And mortality is still currently running at 100%.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

the great vegetarian debate

Post by PeterB »

Jhana4 wrote:
PeterB wrote:1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque.
Most of it in the developed world is and most of it is preventable with different choices.
2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.
Tell that to my father and his wife, they have both had bypass operations. I've seen what it has done to them.

There are many causes of Cardiac disease, many have no or little connection to arterial plaque. They include the ischemias and various types of valvular disease. plus a whole variety of conditions affecting the cardiac muscles.
Few are preventable by dietary means...although some are preventable with exercise.
Jhana4
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

PeterB wrote:When I said " to go" I meant just that. Not attempts to prolong life beyond its natural functioning.
A cardiac arrest is a good way to die, compared to most of the alternative ways to die.

And mortality is still currently running at 100%.
I've talked with many people who have had strokes and heart attacks. It may be a less harsh method of death, than say burning to death, but it is not a "good way to die".

Yes everyone dies, but most people despite what they may say, if given the choice between a shorter life and a longer life with more of their abilities intact would choose the longer life.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

the great vegetarian debate

Post by PeterB »

No doubt. But for for a number of reasons that is not in our own gift to ourselves.
Living a mindful, sila based life for our life span, whether that is thirty, forty, or one hundred years IS.
alan
Posts: 3111
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

the great vegetarian debate

Post by alan »

That diet seems to have been built around the same basics I've been talking about. Fish--good protein. Root veg like sweet potato is a fibrous carb. Coconut? Yeah. You know I'm all in favor of coconut.
The heart-healthy part of the diet is the fact that they have no way to eat simple sugars, and that is great for them. But you don't have to emulate their diet--you can do better. Become aware of the macronutrients and the role the play, and choose your source of nutriment based upon rational decisions. Makes sense, doesn't it?
Jhana4
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

I've met Dr. Esselstyn in person and have been to his lectures about a half dozen times. His anti-heart attack diet is similar to Dr. Dean Ornishes and is primarily a whole foods, high fiber, low fat vegan diet.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

the great vegetarian debate

Post by santa100 »

Ever wonder about the cause of high cholesterol, heart diseases, strokes, etc....? We "civilzied" humans have done lots of weird stuff that our bodies aren'r really designed for. Our species wasn't designed to sit and stare at computer screens 8 hours or more a day. We rarely use our legs. Just hop onto a vehicle, a car, a motorcycle, etc. and push the gas pedal. We rarely get 8 hours of sleep per day. We rarely breathe fresh air outdoor. After work, we get home and lock ourselves inside the box, sit and watch TV or surf the Net for another 5 or 6 hours. Then fill our belly with junk food. The Gym is a product only found in modern society. Our ancestors didn't need it and yet they were a lot more fit than us. We live longer than them not because we're healthier, but because modern technology is able to load our body with tons of powerful chemicals to keep it going. So, you dont' really need any 'heart attack proof' diet, you just need to undo those nasty habits above. Eat a healthy, balanced diet (vegetarian or not), exercise a lot (especially outdoor aerobics like jogging, biking, hiking...), and maintain a positive and healthy mind. That's all you need..
Jhana4
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

USA Today: Bill Clinton declares vegan victory

President Clinton is following the diet Dr. Esselstyn prescribes in his book "Heart Attack Proof"
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Jhana4 »

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Post Reply