the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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samseva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by samseva »

When buying meat, I think you are in a way responsible—although very distantly and indirectly—with the animal's death, with the whole supply and demand (personal opinion). But if you buy a few steaks from a 1000-pound cow (which produces about 430 lb of meat), it is very far from actually killing it.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

Well then if you only ate a few steaks a year it wouldn't be so much of a problem, would it, but add up all the meat you eat in a year it can add up to quite few animals indeed, at least for the average meat eater.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by lyndon taylor »

Vegetarian is a natural diet, you don't need to take supplements to eat a vegetarian diet, dairy products contain plenty of B12, there's nothing unnatural about being vegetarian, and you shouldn't treat it like there is.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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samseva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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lyndon taylor wrote:Well then if you only ate a few steaks a year it wouldn't be so much of a problem, would it, but add up all the meat you eat in a year it can add up to quite few animals indeed, at least for the average meat eater.
If you were to eat more than a 1-lb steak every day for a whole year, that would only account to one cow. You should rather compare this with pescatarians or semi-vegetarians, who judge meat-eaters but who kill hundreds of fish every year or tens of shrimp in only a single meal. Growing grains and vegetables also kills animals through farming, so you don't have your hands clean of blood simply from being a vegetarian.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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Oh brother, you're just making excuses.......

As for killed insects, Cows eat something like 8lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of meat so the vegetarian eating one pound of grain is responsible for killing 1/8 as many insects as you enjoying your steak.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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samseva
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

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lyndon taylor wrote:Vegetarian is a natural diet, you don't need to take supplements to eat a vegetarian diet, dairy products contain plenty of B12, there's nothing unnatural about being vegetarian, and you shouldn't treat it like there is.
I never said there is. But I will however say that because it is natural doesn't necessarily make it healthy (not that it isn't, but that is a very common fallacy in many health/natural food circles).

If a vegetarian isn't eating meat and dairy, he or she should definitely be taking a B12 supplement. A huge range of studies indicate that 52-83% of vegans are B12 deficient. Because it is a natural diet is in no way a good or even logical reason to discredit supplementation.
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by lyndon taylor »

My comments were about vegetarians that eat dairy, not vegans, as I said a vegan diet needs some special attention to getting all the needed nutrients that a vegetarian diet does not, at least not usually.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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samseva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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lyndon taylor wrote:Oh brother, you're just making excuses.......

As for killed insects, Cows eat something like 8lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of meat so the vegetarian eating one pound of grain is responsible for killing 1/8 as many insects as you enjoying your steak.
I'm saying vegetarians and vegans don't have their hands clean of blood, like they so many haughtily think they do. Pescetarians are in a whole other league, almost delusional, which was my other point.
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samseva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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lyndon taylor wrote:Well then if you only ate a few steaks a year it wouldn't be so much of a problem, would it, but add up all the meat you eat in a year it can add up to quite few animals indeed, at least for the average meat eater.
I was saying someone buying meat was in part responsible for the animal's death and you still found a way to rebuke me.

Find another non-vegetarian to argue with. I'm off.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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I've yet to meet one vegetarian that denies insects and some rodents are killed in the farming of food for people and animals, seems like you're grasping at straws, being vegetarian is about having reverence for the lives of animals, and endeavouring to be responsible for the death of the least amount of animals/insects possible. no one in their right mind can claim that the meat eater is not responsible for the death of more animals than the vegetarian or vegan.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
D1W1
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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_anicca_ wrote:D1W1 - Personally, I am a vegetarian, but I don't think you are paying the butcher to kill the animal. It has to do with intention; whenever you go into the store to buy meat, it is not your intention to kill a living being, but simply to buy food.
_anicca_, thanks for your reply.
It's not killing but maybe contributing to animals' death?
samseva wrote:When buying meat, I think you are in a way responsible—although very distantly and indirectly—with the animal's death, with the whole supply and demand (personal opinion). But if you buy a few steaks from a 1000-pound cow (which produces about 430 lb of meat), it is very far from actually killing it.
If we contribute to the death of an animal that means we are also in a way contributing to the death of insects when we buy vegetables. Maybe contribution to the death of animals is more direct than buying vegetables. Is that right?
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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As I said before it takes 8 times as many killed insects/rodents to produce a pound of meat as it does to produce a pound of vegetables, plus the meat eater has some responsibility for killing the animal as well. There's really no moral equivalency. Not to mention it takes like a swimming pool full of water to produce a few steaks.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
D1W1
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by D1W1 »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: A lay person has a free choice what to purchase and what to eat
Hi Bhante,
But does it mean a lay person also have to be responsible over his free choice i.e. purchase meat?
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: while a monk generally has to accept what he is given. However, if invited he can say what is good for his health. For a monk, the main factor is contentment with any kind of almsfood. Having accepted food, he does not have to eat it all. He can share meat or fish with other monks if he wishes to be a vegetarian.
A monk does not buy meat because a monk practices renunciation, go forth from home to homelessness OR because buying meat per se is bad kamma or responsible for the animal's death?
Is there any circumstance where a monk is allowed to buy meat?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

D1W1 wrote:I'm not sure if this post is about great vegetarian debate. I don't think I have intention to debate about vegetarian or non-vegetarian. I just want to get clear understanding.
That's pretty much impossible on this forum. Do your own reading of the relevant discourses like the Āmagandha Sutta and make up your own mind, based on what the Buddha actually taught.

Meditate regularly to abandon craving for sensual pleasures and attachment to views, then repeatedly examine your own conscience to be clear about your own intention before, during, and after doing any action.

Buying meat is not bad kamma, unless you have the intention to have an animal killed for you, e.g. if you go to a turkey farm, and pick out a turkey for Christmas.

Although monks are not permitted to accept or use money in any way, many do nowadays, and some may use it to purchase meat. I doubt if many Theravādin monks need to do that as they are well provided with all kinds of food.

The Vinaya rule about using money was laid down because one monk, who was greedy for meat, was unable to get meat at his supporter's house. Since it was an Uposatha day, his supporters were unable to find any meat to buy. The monk then asked them to give him the money so that he could go and buy some himself.

What is allowed, is for a supporter to donate money for a monk's needs to a lay attendant or a close supporter, inviting the monks to request anything that he needs. If the monk wants meat, he can then tell that lay attendant that he has need of any kind of food including cooked meat or fish. He cannot order the attendant to buy this or that item. He can only say, “I have need of this or that.” If the attendant does not provide what he asks for even after repeated requests, he should inform the donor who offered the funds to the lay attendant.

The same law of kamma applies to all. If there is no intention to kill, the precepts are not broken. Evil kamma can be made by body, speech, or mind. As the Āmagandha Sutta says:
Buddha Kassapa wrote:Anger, pride, obstinacy, antagonism, deceit, envy, boasting, excessive egoism, association with the immoral; this is stench. Not the eating of meat.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

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D1W1 what should be clear is we have one Bhikkhu's opinion and not all Bhikkhu's are in agreement on meat eating, especially outside the Therevada. I think its fair to say you should use your own judgement of what you think is right, based on the teachings of the Buddha and your own integrity, and act accordingly. Just because one monk says eating meat is not bad kamma does not necessarily make it so, as far as I know, the Buddha never said eating meat is not bad kamma, the general overview of the scriptures seems to show the Buddha allowing meat but not particularly being one to encourage meat eating. From the actual meals we have recorded of what the Buddha ate from the scripture, something like 95% of his meals were vegetarian, so you can take that however you feel is appropriate. IMHO

I should add that many Therevada communities have little interest in vegetarianism, and the monks accordingly promote it or have no argument with it, many but not all. In the Mahayana often very strong teachings towards vegetarianism, especially in China. Given that it does involve someone, at least, fragrantly breaking the precept against killing, I feel its best to make your own judgement, rather than let a monk, who may or may not be very attached to eating meat, make that decision for you.

At the temple I ordained at, the monks almost all ate the many meat dishes brought by the devout, I think when I first started there may have been one vegetarian monk, We were taught (Therevada tradition) that the Buddha was a vegetarian, and vegetarianism was the ideal that few people could live up to, and few were interested in trying. At my temple, vegetarianism was like meditation, everyone agreed it was the better thing to do, just not many did.

In all my years hanging out at Therevada temples I was never exposed to the idea that vegetarianism was not a better idea, and ideal, so to speak, first time exposed to that was here on this website, all the monks I talked to supported the idea that vegetarianism was a good idea, an ideal, and most of them had been taught that the Buddha was vegetarian, but that he didn't enforce it on his followers.

Of course this was not a Forest monk tradition, rather more mainstream, in fact judging from the preponderance of Forest tradition on this website, its kind of like we are talking about two distinct religions, Forest is much more conservative, and in many ways not liberal at all.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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