the great vegetarian debate

[Ron-The-Elder]

I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.

Let's see: Buddha established Buddhism over 2500 years ago...

Wow!! You must have set some kind of a record for vegans! Congrats!!!!

I know you're joking, but he meant he was vegetarian before he became Buddhist.

What gave it away? The emoticons?

[RMSmith]

What gave it away? The emoticons?

Methinks sarcasm is vegetarian.

[Mojo]

I'm ovo-lacto veg at home always, though I take a fish oil supplement. I'll always choose the veg option if one is available when away from home and whatever is offered if no choice is available.

[Spiny O'Norman]

I think fewer of us would eat meat if we had to kill and butcher the animal ourselves.

Spiny

[LonesomeYogurt]

I'm a vegetarian mostly because I think it really helps me cultivate non-attachment to food. Having a simple and healthful diet of primarily vegetables and grains and fruits and such can really help a person learn to enjoy simplicity.

I think butchering animals is obviously a hideous thing to do, but I realize that some people don't have any problem with ordering a steak at a restaurant or anything like that. I personally don't feel comfortable doing so but that's fine. As long as they aren't having the meat slaughtered for them, or doing the slaughtering themselves, it's not a breach of any ethics in my mind.

With that said, I think vegetarianism is generally a great choice for everyone (barring certain medical conditions) for a lot of reasons and I'd highly, highly recommend it for its health benefits as well as its ability to help in the cultivation of metta. But it's not a sin to consume meat in and of itself, at least to me. But you can't be a Buddhist and hunt or butcher or sell meat for a living.

[Reductor]

I think fewer of us would eat meat if we had to kill and butcher the animal ourselves.

Spiny

I have killed and butchered wild game, and it was all to easy to eat the proceeds. Just toss 'em in the freezer, pull 'em out, then thaw and cook.

Humans, by and large, have little trouble dismissing the suffering of others, and are very adept at forgetting.

[DNS]

This is a very long thread, so my apologies if I mentioned this already:

In Ethiopia there are no slaughter-houses, so everyone buys the animal (usually goat or sheep or chicken, no pigs) and then cut its throat at home. Due to this, almost all foreign diplomats become vegetarian while they are serving in the Embassy during their time in Ethiopia.

There was one child in the neighborhood of my wife's family who didn't like seeing the animal being slaughtered and refused to eat the meat. He was vegetarian for a few years, but then perhaps gradually became desensitized to the process and then started eating meat.

[Spiny O'Norman]

Humans, by and large, have little trouble dismissing the suffering of others, and are very adept at forgetting.

As Buddhists shouldn't we aim a little higher?

Spiny

PS not aim higher in a literal way

[Reductor]

Humans, by and large, have little trouble dismissing the suffering of others, and are very adept at forgetting.

As Buddhists shouldn't we aim a little higher?

Spiny

PS not aim higher in a literal way

My error was reading your post as a generalization of humans, rather than just Buddhists. In which case I am skeptical of most people's aility to give up what they enjoy for the sake of nonhuman (and human) beings.

In regard to buddhists, it is true that nonharm is highly valued, but so is meditation. Yet very few of us perfect meditation, and many don't even begin. The reasons for that imperfection, of both meditation and nonharm, are highly individual and should not be discounted only because that person considers themselves buddhist. Their prior conditioning could take a long time to be resolved regardless of what they may consider themselves. And since dhamma is not dogmatic, it behooves us to not be dogmatic either. At most we can offer counsel and an example.

But I imagin that, 79 pages in, this view has been expressed before. But who wants to read so many pages, right? Haha.

As an aside, I have been trying to follow a vegetarian diet for many months now. I suppose my diet was actually flexitarian. Only a few days ago did I resolve to abandon all animal products, and that after the six years of pondering and gradual reduction. It took six years for me to reach this point, so it seems only fair to allow others to arrive in their own time.

[Ron-The-Elder]

Discovered this today during readings:

2. âmagandha Sutta-The Smell of raw flesh.

239". Millets, palm shoots, chick peas, fallen fruits, roots and what is got from the cow

And that gained rightfully without hurting beings, and for sensual reasons lies are not told

240. Kassapa, drinking well prepared sweet drinks of fine rice,

Offered by others undergoing much trouble, do you partake the smell of raw flesh.

241 'Whatever the relation of Brahmà says, the smell of raw flesh is not suitable for me.

Partaking eatables like fine rice, with well prepared flesh of birds

I ask you this, how does the smell of raw flesh come to you. "

242 "Destroying life, hurting, cutting binding stealing, telling lies, deceit and cheating

Hypocrisy, and going to others' wives, that is the smell of raw flesh, not partaking flesh.

243. Humans not restrained in sensuality, greedy for tastes and mixed with filth

Gone wrong with the view there's no results for actions, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

244. Hard hearted back biters without compassion, conceited and betrayers of friends,

Do not give anything to anyone, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

245. Angry, intoxicated, stuborn, opposing, crafty, jealous and boasting,

Measuring, conceited, and with wrong intimacy, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

246. The evil, stricken with debt, asked to repay would run away,

The worst of men doing evil in this world, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

247. Unrestrained humans get work done worrying others,

Evil, bloody handed, with rough and malicious talk, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

248 The greedy ones destroying the foetus, always work hard, later go to darkness,

They fall into hell upside down, that is the smell of raw flesh not eating flesh.

249. Eating well prepared fish and meat, going naked, shaving, wearing a headdress, leaving perspiration

on the body and pulling out hairs of the head and beard .

Observing the fire sacrifice, practising eel-wriggling, muttering verses and observing the seasons

Do not purify people of their doubts.

250. Protect the streams1 and abide with controlled mental faculties, be gentle and straightforward

according to the Teaching

Bonds given up, dispel all unpleasantness, the wise do not talk of the seen and heard.

251. When the Blessed One explained its meaning again and again, the brahmins learned it.

The Blessed One explained the smell of raw flesh with beautiful verses.

252. Hearing the good words of the Enlightened One for the cessation of the smell of raw flesh,

Those with low minds worshipped the Thus Gone One and begged for the going forth to end all unpleasantness.

source: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... gga-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ron-The-Elder]

A Plant's Eye View - Michael Pollan:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/michae ... _view.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What if human consciousness isn't the end-all and be-all of Darwinism? What if we are all just pawns in corn's clever strategy game to rule the Earth? Author Michael Pollan asks us to see the world from a plant's-eye view.

Michael Pollan is the author of The Omnivore’s Dilemma, in which he explains how our food not only affects our health but has far-reaching political, economic, and environmental implications. His new book is In Defense of Food.

[Ron-The-Elder]

Vegetarians Prone to Alzheimers in India:

Thanks to DK in Buddha Forum

http://buddhaforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DNS]

Vegetarians Prone to Alzheimers in India:

Thanks to DK in Buddha Forum

http://buddhaforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It cites the lack of B12 among those studied, but doesn't mention the study name or journal. The source looks questionable; it appears to be some investment website?

In any event, the amount of B12 we need is measured in micrograms, not even milligrams and even a small amount of eggs or dairy products once in a while can provide all the B12 a vegan needs.

[Ron-The-Elder]

Vegetarians Prone to Alzheimers in India:

Thanks to DK in Buddha Forum

http://buddhaforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It cites the lack of B12 among those studied, but doesn't mention the study name or journal. The source looks questionable; it appears to be some investment website?

In any event, the amount of B12 we need is measured in micrograms, not even milligrams and even a small amount of eggs or dairy products once in a while can provide all the B12 a vegan needs.

Right! My suggestion in the cited thread was to take vitamin B-12, which can be synthesized from non-animal sources, otherwise vegans would have to relabel themselves as "ovo-vegetarians", or "lacto-vegetarians", which would be surrendering their moral high ground, or renounce the precept: "Take not that which has not been freely given."

Vitamin B12

The molecular structure of vitamin B12 (cobalamin), the most complex of all known vitamins, was announced in 1955 by several scientists, including British biochemists A. R. Todd and Dorothy Hodgkin. In 1973 the vitamin was reported to have been synthesized by organic chemists. Vitamin B12 and closely related cobalamins are necessary for folic acid to fulfill its role; both are involved in the synthesis of proteins. American physicians G. R. Minot and W. P. Murphy in 1926 fed large amounts of liver to patients with pernicious anemia and cured them; the curative substance in this case was probably vitamin B12. However, pernicious anemia in humans is caused not by a vitamin B12 deficiency in the diet but rather the absence of a substance called the intrinsic factor, ordinarily secreted by the stomach and responsible for facilitating the absorption of B12 from the intestine. When a person's body cannot produce the intrinsic factor, the standard treatment today is to inject vitamin B12 directly into the bloodstream. Minot and Murphy's therapy worked because the liver they fed their patients contained such large quantities of B12 that sufficient amounts of the vitamin were absorbed without the assistance of the intrinsic factor. Inadequate absorption of B12 causes pernicious anemia, nervous system degeneration, and amenorrhea. The only site of cobalamin synthesis in nature appears to be in microorganisms; neither animals nor higher plants are capable of making these vitamin B12 derivatives. Nevertheless, such animal tissues as the liver, kidney, and heart of ruminants contain relatively large quantities of vitamin B12; the vitamin stored in these organs was originally produced by the bacteria in the ruminant gut. Bivalves (clams or oysters), which siphon microorganisms from the sea, are also good sources. Plants, on the other hand, are poor sources of vitamin B12. The recommended daily dietary allowance for adults is 3 micrograms.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0861824.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/top ... itamin-B12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TheScientist]

Vegetarians Prone to Alzheimers in India:

Thanks to DK in Buddha Forum

http://buddhaforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1242" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The study that this article refers to is here...'Homocysteine and holotranscobalamin and the risk of Alzheimer disease'

It doesn't look at vegetarians. Rather it measures the B12 levels in elderly people, and shows a correlation between low b12 levels and the risk of getting demetia. However there was no explanation of what caused those b12 levels to be low. It could have been low dietary intake or poor absorption from their intestines. If the latter then could the absorption of any other essential nutrient have been abnormal? This question was not addressed. In addition the association may have been spurious, perhaps another factor induced both poor b12 absorption and dementia independently. Again this is not addressed, but to be fair they were a lot more conservative about the study's conclusions in the paper than the media reports.

The only link to vegetarians is that it has been found in other studies that vegetarians are at risk of having lower b12. Yet it has also been shown that vegetarians have a reduced chance of getting dementia, hereand here. While b12 may be important, other aspects of a vegetarian diet appear to be protective, overcoming the risk of low b12 consumption.