the great vegetarian debate

[Annapurna]

I agree that physical degeneration has to do with denatured food.

That's why i eat a lot of raw food.

I can FEEL how my energy goes down with too much denatured food, and I begin to crave raw food...sort of like:

I don't want anymore cake, gimmie an apple.

[Cittasanto]

Did you read about Dr. Price and his 30 years of research in the developing world?

I have read enough to know that he is mistaken and have read and experienced enough with the vegetarian diet to know that it works, in my opinion and for me.

I agree.

[alan]

Took me a long time to accept that soy was not good for the health...I rejected it too, first time I heard it. Don't think I will change any minds.
And obviously the science of health is not what most people want to discuss. So:

How important is it to avoid killing sentient creatures, if their consumption keeps us healthier?

[Cittasanto]

How important is it to avoid killing sentient creatures, if their consumption keeps us healthier?

How important is eating meat when there are options available which would keep the body healthy?
eating meat does not guarantee perfect health.

[alan]

Yes Manapa but what about supplements like Krill oil?

[Annapurna]

How important is it to avoid killing sentient creatures, if their consumption keeps us healthier?

The first precept, and not supporting wrong livelyhood is on the one side,
and self- centered needs for a body that will rot on the other.

Trying to maintain a body at the expense of other sentient beings.

Took me a long time to accept that soy was not good for the health...I rejected it too, first time I heard it. Don't think I will change any minds.
And obviously the science of health is not what most people want to discuss.

Please quote exacty which health issue you're concerned about.

Your assertion remains too vague to be able to reply.

Thank you.

[Cittasanto]

Yes Manapa but what about supplements like Krill oil?

What about it?

[tiltbillings]

Yes Manapa but what about supplements like Krill oil?

If you are looking for the omega oils, flax oil will do quite nicely.

[bodhabill]

My partner has been vegetarian for a while, she never tried to convert me and I was happy to go with the flow most of the time

Big change happened when I went to India on a business trip, that was my introduction to Buddhism and at the same time went 100% vegetarian

Going vegetarian was easy in India, the vegetarian cuisine is so good

With Metta
Bill

[seekeroftruth]

Yes, for almost 2 yrs now. I wanted to become vegetarian a few years ago, after studying Buddhism for awhile, but only went to poultry, and that did not last. 2 years ago, I was introduced to a documentary, Meet your Meat, and saw how animals for food are treated and switched that day. Though I came to be vegetarian through caring about animals, I continue for environmental and my interpretation of the first precept as well.

[BubbaBuddhist]

The only time it's difficult is when wife & I go on our annual vacation to New Orleans. We spend a week there, and I practically starve to death.

J

[seekeroftruth]

I congratulate you Tex on wanting to becoming vegetarian. I made the change almost 2 yrs ago and am a lacto-veg/lacto-ovo veg now, slowly removing any egg from my diet. I still eat cheese and any dairy within most food I buy, but whenever I cook my own food, I use soy milk and vegan butter. My change was very abrupt, I went to class one day wanting to buy a turkey sub when I got out, watched the documentary 'Meet Your Meat', and left class to get a veggie sub and have not been back. I did not really notice any cravings or weakness afterward, but I know it became easier to eat some food after a few weeks. I used to not like many veggies before I became vegetarian, but I came to like a lot of veggies after. I do not do much cooking right now, and I probably do not have a very balanced diet, but I manage what I can and plan to learn how to cook more foods so I can have everything I need.

To jump over to Alan for a second, I saw a very interesting documentary called 'Fowl Play', that looks at the lives of chickens and the eggs they produce. The interesting thing from this documentary was that cage-less chickens do not have a better life than caged birds, they are just crammed into a barn, filled with chickens. I would suggest using free-range eggs, I do not know much about them, but I assume they would be what you are talking about, chickens allowed to run outside.

[Potato]

The study on which the Weston A. Price Foundation bases it claims that soy is bad for you was badly flawed. If soy was really as bad as the Price lunatics claim, breast cancer and man-boobs would be endemic across Asia.

Also, bear in mind that neither Sally Fallon nor Mary Enig, currently the loudest proponents of Price's nonsense, have ever published a peer-reviewed article.

[Tex]

Okay, so it's been 10 days.

I haven't really noticed any physical difference. I was a little tired last week, not totally exhausted or anything, just felt like going to bed an hour earlier than normal a couple of times. I don't even know if the diet change had anything to do with that or if I was just tired from a busy week at work.

I only really "craved" meat once, in a sports bar/restaurant with a friend. The smell of buffalo wings was overwhelming. For our non-Americans, no, we don't have winged buffaloes, although that would be pretty cool -- Buffalo is a city famous for a sauce most often used on chicken wings. But I found out that you can order a basket of fries and a little bowl of buffalo sauce to dip the fries into. After that I realized it was the sauce I was craving, not the chicken.

So maybe meat cravings come later? Maybe I just wasn't eating enough meat to get them?

Anyway, I'm just relaying this in case anyone else is contemplating a similar change. I was somewhat daunted by such a seemingly-huge lifestyle change, but honestly, it's been a piece of cake (so far). Other than when I'm at the grocery store or putting together a meal, it's hardly even crossed my mind.

[notself]

Yep, after contemplating it for quite some time, I finally decided I'm not going to eat meat anymore. Even if I'm not directly responsible for the animal being killed, I'm just no longer okay with eating anything that was once a sentient being. Never would have imagined this a couple years ago! But here I am.

So I've made the decision and have done some research online, but I still have some questions, and I know we have quite a few vegetarians here, so I'd appreciate any guidance...

1) What about iron? Supplements? Do they get the iron that they put in the pills from animals?

2) I think I've found a variety of rices, pastas, beans, whole grains, nuts, etc to keep my protein level fairly close to where it is now (I'm a big guy and I work out regularly, so I need around 80-100 grams a day), but do any of you use protein supplements, shakes, etc? I'm just leery of any "protein supplements" since the FDA tends to ban things after they've been on the market. Any recommendations here?

3) Dairy? If I continue to eat dairy, this solves the protein dilemma easily. But would it be hypocritical for me to stop eating meat because I don't want animals killed for my consumption while still continuing to consume dairy from animals that often are treated very poorly in a dairy farm? Thoughts here?

4) Are there any potential health changes or concerns that I need to be aware of in making this switch rather abruptly? This wasn't intended to be a New Year's resolution, that's just how it worked out -- I made the decision a couple weeks ago and this is when the meat in the freezer ran out (can't afford to throw out food that's already been paid for). So I've been a regular meat-eater all my life up through yesterday -- is stopping meat consumption so abruptly anything to be concerned about?

Thanks in advance for any input or guidance.

Log everything you eat into this free online journal. http://www.fitday.com/ It will give you a report on all of the nutrients you are eating, including iron and protien. Keep the journal until you are comfortable that you are eating correctly. Iron and protein were not a problem when I tried to become a vegetarian. I did succeed in cutting way back on meat, fish and poultry, but I am still not 100%. I did find it unnecessary to take a multivitamin after logging all my food. I did start taking more calcium and increased my Vitamin D. Best wishes on becoming a vegetarian.

[tiltbillings]

General health tips: Fish oil is good, Krill oil is far superior.

They are not vegetarian. If it is for the omega-3 benefits, those same benefits can be gained from eating flax seeds or walnuts.

Flax oil, easily gotten, is an excellent choice for the Omegas and it does not involve killing creatures.

[Paññāsikhara]

Okay, so it's been 10 days.

I haven't really noticed any physical difference. I was a little tired last week, not totally exhausted or anything, just felt like going to bed an hour earlier than normal a couple of times. I don't even know if the diet change had anything to do with that or if I was just tired from a busy week at work.

I only really "craved" meat once, in a sports bar/restaurant with a friend. The smell of buffalo wings was overwhelming. For our non-Americans, no, we don't have winged buffaloes, although that would be pretty cool -- Buffalo is a city famous for a sauce most often used on chicken wings. But I found out that you can order a basket of fries and a little bowl of buffalo sauce to dip the fries into. After that I realized it was the sauce I was craving, not the chicken.

So maybe meat cravings come later? Maybe I just wasn't eating enough meat to get them?

Anyway, I'm just relaying this in case anyone else is contemplating a similar change. I was somewhat daunted by such a seemingly-huge lifestyle change, but honestly, it's been a piece of cake (so far). Other than when I'm at the grocery store or putting together a meal, it's hardly even crossed my mind.

<< Shocking images of what sort of aerial jettisoned gifts flying winged buffalo may drop on unsuspecting pedestrians below >>

Sounds good so far! Hope all continues without any problems.

[Ben]

Well done Tex.
My own transition is a little bumpier - it comes with living wih a household of meat-eating barbarians. I had a near mutiny the other night when I served up tempeh burgers. Definitely not my finest culinary effort and didn't taste as good as I remember from my macrobiotic days.
kind regards

Ben

[Clueless Git]

Yep, after contemplating it for quite some time, I finally decided I'm not going to eat meat anymore.

Congrats Tex

The 'trick' is simply to make sure your diet includes a good rotation from the different veggie food groups and from within each food group be sure to rotate through all the different colours.

No animal can synthesise stuff like iron and B12. Any iron, b12 etc that the cold dead flesh of animals contains comes soley from the vegetable matter which they eat.

You may get some 'detox' symptons as your body adjusts to a far cleaner diet than it has been used to btw.

[Reductor]

Well done Tex.
My own transition is a little bumpier - it comes with living wih a household of meat-eating barbarians. I had a near mutiny the other night when I served up tempeh burgers. Definitely not my finest culinary effort and didn't taste as good as I remember from my macrobiotic days.
kind regards

Ben

My wife has a 'fetish' for liver and various organ meats Often I would find such stuff hidden in my food. Hence I have decided to do all my own cooking.

Luckily the kids don't seem struck on meat. But a stubborn wife is going to be trouble enough.
I told her to keep such things far from my plate, but that she could dine out on it to her hearts content.