the great vegetarian debate

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the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:23 pm

Hi cooran, David2, octathlon,

Good points about eating food mindfully for sustenance. That is definitely a goal of Dhamma practice and a good thing to do. By doing so, it can be easier to eat healthy, since taste would not be so much of an issue. If the issue is sustenance, there should be no reason to not eat healthy.

At the moment, I still enjoy some good tasting foods, but still try to keep them as healthy as possible, for example mostly vegan. I "spice" it up with curries and other seasonings, but I agree definitely sustenance should be our goal.
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Postby octathlon » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:34 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:At the moment, I still enjoy some good tasting foods, but still try to keep them as healthy as possible, for example mostly vegan. I "spice" it up with curries and other seasonings, but I agree definitely sustenance should be our goal.

Don't worry, spices like curry, cinammon, and ginger are good for you. :smile: They help lower insulin and cholesterol. I don't have a link just at hand, but if you google you will find plenty of sources.
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Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:45 pm

octathlon wrote:Don't worry, spices like curry, cinammon, and ginger are good for you. :smile: They help lower insulin and cholesterol. I don't have a link just at hand, but if you google you will find plenty of sources.


Yes, exactly; some delicious foods are healthy too, such as curry veggies, curry tofu, veggie-ginger stir fry. But if you add coconut milk and/or oil, it may not be compatible with the Esselstyn diet.
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Postby Kenshou » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:50 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:I have heard that argument several times, that we humans have evolved to eat meat. But if that were the case, why is it that meat and other high fat foods raise cholesterol levels, blood pressure, triglycerides, and by the account of most studies to heart disease?
Well those things tend to kill us after we've already had time to successfully reproduce, and that's as far as evolution's influence goes for the most part. That said, I'm not taking a stance on that question here.
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Postby alan » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:22 am

I'm not saying we evolved to eat meat. That would not be a proper understanding. I'm saying that as we evolved, we ate meat. I'm saying that animal products were an essential part of our diet during our evolution.

Still waiting to hear about any traditional society that was vegan.
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Postby cooran » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:19 am

octathlon wrote:Hi Cooran,
I saw that article (in the OP) yesterday and found it very interesting so I googled for more details. It seems to come down to the amount of omega-3 (good) vs. omega-6 (not good) fat that we are taking in, and if we eat a lot of omega-6 it crowds out the omega-3, so even if you take a lot of fish oil or flaxseed oil to get your -3, it tathlondoesn't do much good if you still eat too much -6.
Here's a link to a blog of someone who has experimented with different diets and then compared blood chemistry results: http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/hap ... sults.html

One interesting thing I read was that in spring/summer, animals (and people) would naturally eat the available leafy stuff (high -3) and in the fall/winter when they need to store fat for the winter, they eat the now-available seeds and nuts which are high in -6 and cause the metabolism to slow down and fat to be stored.

Anyway, I looked at what I ate and of course it was the opposite of what the Esselstyn diet recommends. For example I eat a lot of peanut butter, sunflower seeds, etc. and they are almost all omega-6 fat. I would like to figure out the healthiest way to eat but there is just too much conflicting info out there. I like the idea of experimenting with a certain diet for a while and observing the effects.

Since I would say food is one of the most significant areas of craving I have, I'm interested in learning to view food as simply fuel. The problem is, I think I am really just suppressing my cravings rather than actually letting go of anything. I believe there are specific meditations to help with this.


Hello Octathlon, all,

No need to be a vegan - in the Kitava study they looked at subsistence horticulturalists in Kitaka, Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea. The diet of these people is tubers, fruit, fish, and coconut which are staples – but dairy products, refined fat and sugar, cereals and alcohol are absent and salt intake is low. Of course, an article on a CNN website as linked to in the OP is only meant to give a ''heads-up'', and those who wish to know more will look further. That is how I came across the Kitava Study link - and I'm getting the book to look further.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Postby Jhana4 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:57 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,

Anyone had any experience with this diet?

The 'heart attack proof' diet
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/1 ... ?hpt=hp_c2

His book is called:
Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure [Paperback]
By: Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Pre ... hHaBiKKU8C

with metta
Chris




President Clinton has. It is the diet he is using to recover post heart surgery. Esselstyn's clinic and follow ups also set the set for Dr. Dean Ornish's clinical studies which proved that diet can reduce arterioral plaque build up.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:09 am

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby dhammapal » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:41 am

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Postby octathlon » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:50 pm

cooran wrote:
octathlon wrote:Hi Cooran,
I saw that article (in the OP) yesterday and found it very interesting so I googled for more details. It seems to come down to the amount of omega-3 (good) vs. omega-6 (not good) fat that we are taking in, and if we eat a lot of omega-6 it crowds out the omega-3, so even if you take a lot of fish oil or flaxseed oil to get your -3, it tathlondoesn't do much good if you still eat too much -6.
Here's a link to a blog of someone who has experimented with different diets and then compared blood chemistry results: http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/hap ... sults.html

One interesting thing I read was that in spring/summer, animals (and people) would naturally eat the available leafy stuff (high -3) and in the fall/winter when they need to store fat for the winter, they eat the now-available seeds and nuts which are high in -6 and cause the metabolism to slow down and fat to be stored.

Anyway, I looked at what I ate and of course it was the opposite of what the Esselstyn diet recommends. For example I eat a lot of peanut butter, sunflower seeds, etc. and they are almost all omega-6 fat. I would like to figure out the healthiest way to eat but there is just too much conflicting info out there. I like the idea of experimenting with a certain diet for a while and observing the effects.

Since I would say food is one of the most significant areas of craving I have, I'm interested in learning to view food as simply fuel. The problem is, I think I am really just suppressing my cravings rather than actually letting go of anything. I believe there are specific meditations to help with this.


Hello Octathlon, all,

No need to be a vegan - in the Kitava study they looked at subsistence horticulturalists in Kitaka, Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea. The diet of these people is tubers, fruit, fish, and coconut which are staples – but dairy products, refined fat and sugar, cereals and alcohol are absent and salt intake is low. Of course, an article on a CNN website as linked to in the OP is only meant to give a ''heads-up'', and those who wish to know more will look further. That is how I came across the Kitava Study link - and I'm getting the book to look further.

with metta
Chris

??? You quoted my post but seemed to be answering/addressing something else.
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Postby Jhana4 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:34 pm

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn will talk about plant-based diets tonight at 8 p.m. on CNN
http://www.heartattackproof.com/
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Postby PeterB » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:52 am

1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque. A proportion is caused by non-preventable factors. Many of them hereditary.
2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.
3) Whatever the diet, mortality rates are currently running at 100%.
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Postby Jhana4 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:59 am

Jhana4 wrote:Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn will talk about plant-based diets tonight at 8 p.m. on CNN
http://www.heartattackproof.com/


I heard that this has been rescheduled.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:03 pm

PeterB wrote:1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque.


Most of it in the developed world is and most of it is preventable with different choices.

2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.


Tell that to my father and his wife, they have both had bypass operations. I've seen what it has done to them.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Postby PeterB » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:01 pm

When I said " to go" I meant just that. Not attempts to prolong life beyond its natural functioning.
A cardiac arrest is a good way to die, compared to most of the alternative ways to die.

And mortality is still currently running at 100%.
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Postby PeterB » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:10 pm

Jhana4 wrote:
PeterB wrote:1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque.


Most of it in the developed world is and most of it is preventable with different choices.

2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.


Tell that to my father and his wife, they have both had bypass operations. I've seen what it has done to them.



There are many causes of Cardiac disease, many have no or little connection to arterial plaque. They include the ischemias and various types of valvular disease. plus a whole variety of conditions affecting the cardiac muscles.
Few are preventable by dietary means...although some are preventable with exercise.
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Postby Jhana4 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:43 pm

PeterB wrote:When I said " to go" I meant just that. Not attempts to prolong life beyond its natural functioning.
A cardiac arrest is a good way to die, compared to most of the alternative ways to die.

And mortality is still currently running at 100%.


I've talked with many people who have had strokes and heart attacks. It may be a less harsh method of death, than say burning to death, but it is not a "good way to die".

Yes everyone dies, but most people despite what they may say, if given the choice between a shorter life and a longer life with more of their abilities intact would choose the longer life.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:06 pm

No doubt. But for for a number of reasons that is not in our own gift to ourselves.
Living a mindful, sila based life for our life span, whether that is thirty, forty, or one hundred years IS.
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Postby alan » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:59 am

That diet seems to have been built around the same basics I've been talking about. Fish--good protein. Root veg like sweet potato is a fibrous carb. Coconut? Yeah. You know I'm all in favor of coconut.
The heart-healthy part of the diet is the fact that they have no way to eat simple sugars, and that is great for them. But you don't have to emulate their diet--you can do better. Become aware of the macronutrients and the role the play, and choose your source of nutriment based upon rational decisions. Makes sense, doesn't it?
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Postby Jhana4 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:54 pm

I've met Dr. Esselstyn in person and have been to his lectures about a half dozen times. His anti-heart attack diet is similar to Dr. Dean Ornishes and is primarily a whole foods, high fiber, low fat vegan diet.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Jhana4
 
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
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