the great vegetarian debate

[David N. Snyder]

Hi cooran, David2, octathlon,

Good points about eating food mindfully for sustenance. That is definitely a goal of Dhamma practice and a good thing to do. By doing so, it can be easier to eat healthy, since taste would not be so much of an issue. If the issue is sustenance, there should be no reason to not eat healthy.

At the moment, I still enjoy some good tasting foods, but still try to keep them as healthy as possible, for example mostly vegan. I "spice" it up with curries and other seasonings, but I agree definitely sustenance should be our goal.

[octathlon]

At the moment, I still enjoy some good tasting foods, but still try to keep them as healthy as possible, for example mostly vegan. I "spice" it up with curries and other seasonings, but I agree definitely sustenance should be our goal.

Don't worry, spices like curry, cinammon, and ginger are good for you. They help lower insulin and cholesterol. I don't have a link just at hand, but if you google you will find plenty of sources.

[David N. Snyder]

Don't worry, spices like curry, cinammon, and ginger are good for you. They help lower insulin and cholesterol. I don't have a link just at hand, but if you google you will find plenty of sources.

Yes, exactly; some delicious foods are healthy too, such as curry veggies, curry tofu, veggie-ginger stir fry. But if you add coconut milk and/or oil, it may not be compatible with the Esselstyn diet.

[Kenshou]

I have heard that argument several times, that we humans have evolved to eat meat. But if that were the case, why is it that meat and other high fat foods raise cholesterol levels, blood pressure, triglycerides, and by the account of most studies to heart disease?

Well those things tend to kill us after we've already had time to successfully reproduce, and that's as far as evolution's influence goes for the most part. That said, I'm not taking a stance on that question here.

[alan]

I'm not saying we evolved to eat meat. That would not be a proper understanding. I'm saying that as we evolved, we ate meat. I'm saying that animal products were an essential part of our diet during our evolution.

Still waiting to hear about any traditional society that was vegan.

[cooran]

Hi Cooran,
I saw that article (in the OP) yesterday and found it very interesting so I googled for more details. It seems to come down to the amount of omega-3 (good) vs. omega-6 (not good) fat that we are taking in, and if we eat a lot of omega-6 it crowds out the omega-3, so even if you take a lot of fish oil or flaxseed oil to get your -3, it tathlondoesn't do much good if you still eat too much -6.
Here's a link to a blog of someone who has experimented with different diets and then compared blood chemistry results: http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/hap ... sults.html

One interesting thing I read was that in spring/summer, animals (and people) would naturally eat the available leafy stuff (high -3) and in the fall/winter when they need to store fat for the winter, they eat the now-available seeds and nuts which are high in -6 and cause the metabolism to slow down and fat to be stored.

Anyway, I looked at what I ate and of course it was the opposite of what the Esselstyn diet recommends. For example I eat a lot of peanut butter, sunflower seeds, etc. and they are almost all omega-6 fat. I would like to figure out the healthiest way to eat but there is just too much conflicting info out there. I like the idea of experimenting with a certain diet for a while and observing the effects.

Since I would say food is one of the most significant areas of craving I have, I'm interested in learning to view food as simply fuel. The problem is, I think I am really just suppressing my cravings rather than actually letting go of anything. I believe there are specific meditations to help with this.

Hello Octathlon, all,

No need to be a vegan - in the Kitava study they looked at subsistence horticulturalists in Kitaka, Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea. The diet of these people is tubers, fruit, fish, and coconut which are staples – but dairy products, refined fat and sugar, cereals and alcohol are absent and salt intake is low. Of course, an article on a CNN website as linked to in the OP is only meant to give a ''heads-up'', and those who wish to know more will look further. That is how I came across the Kitava Study link - and I'm getting the book to look further.

with metta
Chris

[Jhana4]

Hello all,

Anyone had any experience with this diet?

The 'heart attack proof' diet
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/1 ... ?hpt=hp_c2

His book is called:
Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure [Paperback]
By: Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Pre ... hHaBiKKU8C

with metta
Chris

President Clinton has. It is the diet he is using to recover post heart surgery. Esselstyn's clinic and follow ups also set the set for Dr. Dean Ornish's clinical studies which proved that diet can reduce arterioral plaque build up.

[Jhana4]

President Clinton Goes mostly Vegan

[dhammapal]

Metta, Diet and Lifestyle by Bodhipaksa.

[octathlon]

Hi Cooran,
I saw that article (in the OP) yesterday and found it very interesting so I googled for more details. It seems to come down to the amount of omega-3 (good) vs. omega-6 (not good) fat that we are taking in, and if we eat a lot of omega-6 it crowds out the omega-3, so even if you take a lot of fish oil or flaxseed oil to get your -3, it tathlondoesn't do much good if you still eat too much -6.
Here's a link to a blog of someone who has experimented with different diets and then compared blood chemistry results: http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/hap ... sults.html

One interesting thing I read was that in spring/summer, animals (and people) would naturally eat the available leafy stuff (high -3) and in the fall/winter when they need to store fat for the winter, they eat the now-available seeds and nuts which are high in -6 and cause the metabolism to slow down and fat to be stored.

Anyway, I looked at what I ate and of course it was the opposite of what the Esselstyn diet recommends. For example I eat a lot of peanut butter, sunflower seeds, etc. and they are almost all omega-6 fat. I would like to figure out the healthiest way to eat but there is just too much conflicting info out there. I like the idea of experimenting with a certain diet for a while and observing the effects.

Since I would say food is one of the most significant areas of craving I have, I'm interested in learning to view food as simply fuel. The problem is, I think I am really just suppressing my cravings rather than actually letting go of anything. I believe there are specific meditations to help with this.

Hello Octathlon, all,

No need to be a vegan - in the Kitava study they looked at subsistence horticulturalists in Kitaka, Trobriand Islands, Papua New Guinea. The diet of these people is tubers, fruit, fish, and coconut which are staples – but dairy products, refined fat and sugar, cereals and alcohol are absent and salt intake is low. Of course, an article on a CNN website as linked to in the OP is only meant to give a ''heads-up'', and those who wish to know more will look further. That is how I came across the Kitava Study link - and I'm getting the book to look further.

with metta
Chris

??? You quoted my post but seemed to be answering/addressing something else.

[Jhana4]

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn will talk about plant-based diets tonight at 8 p.m. on CNN
http://www.heartattackproof.com/

[PeterB]

1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque. A proportion is caused by non-preventable factors. Many of them hereditary.
2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.
3) Whatever the diet, mortality rates are currently running at 100%.

[Jhana4]

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn will talk about plant-based diets tonight at 8 p.m. on CNN
http://www.heartattackproof.com/

I heard that this has been rescheduled.

[Jhana4]

1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque.

Most of it in the developed world is and most of it is preventable with different choices.

2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.

Tell that to my father and his wife, they have both had bypass operations. I've seen what it has done to them.

[PeterB]

When I said " to go" I meant just that. Not attempts to prolong life beyond its natural functioning.
A cardiac arrest is a good way to die, compared to most of the alternative ways to die.

And mortality is still currently running at 100%.

[PeterB]

1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque.

Most of it in the developed world is and most of it is preventable with different choices.

2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.

Tell that to my father and his wife, they have both had bypass operations. I've seen what it has done to them.

There are many causes of Cardiac disease, many have no or little connection to arterial plaque. They include the ischemias and various types of valvular disease. plus a whole variety of conditions affecting the cardiac muscles.
Few are preventable by dietary means...although some are preventable with exercise.

[Jhana4]

When I said " to go" I meant just that. Not attempts to prolong life beyond its natural functioning.
A cardiac arrest is a good way to die, compared to most of the alternative ways to die.

And mortality is still currently running at 100%.

I've talked with many people who have had strokes and heart attacks. It may be a less harsh method of death, than say burning to death, but it is not a "good way to die".

Yes everyone dies, but most people despite what they may say, if given the choice between a shorter life and a longer life with more of their abilities intact would choose the longer life.

[PeterB]

No doubt. But for for a number of reasons that is not in our own gift to ourselves.
Living a mindful, sila based life for our life span, whether that is thirty, forty, or one hundred years IS.

[alan]

That diet seems to have been built around the same basics I've been talking about. Fish--good protein. Root veg like sweet potato is a fibrous carb. Coconut? Yeah. You know I'm all in favor of coconut.
The heart-healthy part of the diet is the fact that they have no way to eat simple sugars, and that is great for them. But you don't have to emulate their diet--you can do better. Become aware of the macronutrients and the role the play, and choose your source of nutriment based upon rational decisions. Makes sense, doesn't it?

[Jhana4]

I've met Dr. Esselstyn in person and have been to his lectures about a half dozen times. His anti-heart attack diet is similar to Dr. Dean Ornishes and is primarily a whole foods, high fiber, low fat vegan diet.