the great vegetarian debate

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the great vegetarian debate

Postby santa100 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:39 pm

Ever wonder about the cause of high cholesterol, heart diseases, strokes, etc....? We "civilzied" humans have done lots of weird stuff that our bodies aren'r really designed for. Our species wasn't designed to sit and stare at computer screens 8 hours or more a day. We rarely use our legs. Just hop onto a vehicle, a car, a motorcycle, etc. and push the gas pedal. We rarely get 8 hours of sleep per day. We rarely breathe fresh air outdoor. After work, we get home and lock ourselves inside the box, sit and watch TV or surf the Net for another 5 or 6 hours. Then fill our belly with junk food. The Gym is a product only found in modern society. Our ancestors didn't need it and yet they were a lot more fit than us. We live longer than them not because we're healthier, but because modern technology is able to load our body with tons of powerful chemicals to keep it going. So, you dont' really need any 'heart attack proof' diet, you just need to undo those nasty habits above. Eat a healthy, balanced diet (vegetarian or not), exercise a lot (especially outdoor aerobics like jogging, biking, hiking...), and maintain a positive and healthy mind. That's all you need..
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:36 am

USA Today: Bill Clinton declares vegan victory

President Clinton is following the diet Dr. Esselstyn prescribes in his book "Heart Attack Proof"
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:37 am

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:26 am

" I did not eat that steak....I chewed but did not swallow "
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:31 pm



From the article:

Eating a vegan diet can be unhealthy if….

A vegetarian diet can be a healthy one if people avoid certain pitfalls, says registered dietitian Dawn Jackson Blatner, author of The Flexitarian Diet and a blogger at food.usatoday.com. Here are some common mistakes vegetarians make:

•Eating usual meals minus meat. Just opting out of meat will lead to a diet low in protein, iron and zinc, Blatner says. So instead, you need to swap in plant proteins, such as beans and legumes, that can provide the essential nutrients and help keep hunger at bay, she says.

•No-veggie vegetarian. "This mistake is also known as the 'beige diet,' with a focus on dull-colored carbohydrate foods such as bread, pasta, rice." Each meal and snack should have colorful, disease-fighting produce to get optimal health benefits and to keep calories in check, she says.

•Faux-meat fixation. "You know you are guilty of this if you look in your fridge and see too many veggie burgers, 'chicken' nuggets and veggie lunchmeats," she says. These are fine in a pinch, but indulging regularly in these veggie conveniences results in too much processed food that is too high in sodium.

•Vegan health halo. The word "vegan" or "vegetarian" on a package is not a synonym for healthy, Blatner says. Even if a cookie, cake or fries are veggie-friendly, these are still junk foods that should be enjoyed in moderation, she says.

•Cheeseaholic. Some vegetarians rely only on cheese to get protein, eating foods such as cheese sandwiches, cheese on pasta and cheese and crackers for a snack, Blatner says. Overdoing it on cheese ends up being too high in calories and saturated fat, she says.


It is a myth that all vegetarians are healthy. It is actually quite easy to be vegetarian and eat unhealthy, if you do it the wrong way.

I admit to being guilty of doing the "no-veggie vegetarian" diet and "cheesaholic" when I first became a vegetarian 27 years ago. When I told people "I'm a vegetarian who doesn't eat vegetables", no one believed me. Many think that vegetarians only eat grass or other green things. But being a no-veggie vegetarian can really be done; by eating pasta, grains, tofu, faux-meats, and cheese / dairy items. Gradually I learned the importance of making it a healthy vegetarian diet and have moved more towards being vegan. Now my protein, iron, triglycerides, blood pressure, and heart rate are at the best levels and better than most men half my age. (of course, individual results vary and my results do not necessarily extrapolate)
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby daverupa » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:29 pm

David N. Snyder wrote: Now my protein, iron, triglycerides, blood pressure, and heart rate are at the best levels and better than most men half my age. (of course, individual results vary and my results do not necessarily extrapolate)


You also, iirc, do stair-climbing, which is a strong variable for that health profile.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:37 pm

“THE LAST HEART ATTACK” has been rescheduled for TONIGHT at 9pm and 12 ET, 6 and 9 PT. The CNN 1-hour special hosted by Dr. Sanjay Gupta features Bill Clinton and Forks Over Knives’ Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby appicchato » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:13 pm

santa100 wrote:Ever wonder about the cause of high cholesterol, heart diseases, strokes, etc....? We "civilzied" humans have done lots of weird stuff that our bodies aren'r really designed for. Our species wasn't designed to sit and stare at computer screens 8 hours or more a day. We rarely use our legs. Just hop onto a vehicle, a car, a motorcycle, etc. and push the gas pedal. We rarely get 8 hours of sleep per day. We rarely breathe fresh air outdoor. After work, we get home and lock ourselves inside the box, sit and watch TV or surf the Net for another 5 or 6 hours. Then fill our belly with junk food. The Gym is a product only found in modern society. Our ancestors didn't need it and yet they were a lot more fit than us. We live longer than them not because we're healthier, but because modern technology is able to load our body with tons of powerful chemicals to keep it going. So, you dont' really need any 'heart attack proof' diet, you just need to undo those nasty habits above. Eat a healthy, balanced diet (vegetarian or not), exercise a lot (especially outdoor aerobics like jogging, biking, hiking...), and maintain a positive and healthy mind. That's all you need..


Your characterization of 'our species' is grossly inaccurate...it's a big world out there, have a look... :smile:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:32 pm

Jhana4 wrote:“THE LAST HEART ATTACK” has been rescheduled for TONIGHT at 9pm and 12 ET, 6 and 9 PT. The CNN 1-hour special hosted by Dr. Sanjay Gupta features Bill Clinton and Forks Over Knives’ Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn.


Dr. Esselstyn's book "Heart Attack Proof" just hit #1 on amazon.com
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:11 pm

Al Gore on Global Warming: Eat Less Meat

While Al Gore’s highly-acclaimed and award-winning documentary “An Inconvenient Truth” may have conveniently neglected to highlight the harmful impact of our dietary choices, in a recent interview, the former vice-president suggests curbing our meat consumption to help curb global warming.

According to Gore: "Industrial agriculture is a part of the problem.... The shift toward a more meat-intensive diet is also part of the problem. The clearing of forest areas in many parts of the world in order to raise more cattle, that's a part of it.”

Countless reports and studies support the assertions that industrial agriculture, specifically animal agriculture, is taking a major toll on the planet. In fact, raising animals for food is one of the leading causes of both pollution and resource depletion today. According to the United Nations, “Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to today’s most serious environmental problems. Urgent action is needed to remedy the situation.”

Researchers from the University of Chicago report that when all levels of production are factored in—from livestock crop production to shipping animals to slaughter— a vegetarian diet is the most energy efficient, and the average American can do more to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by not eating meat, eggs, and dairy than by switching to a hybrid car.

Additionally, Carnegie Mellon University researchers found that we can do more for the planet by going vegetarian even just one day per week than by switching to a totally local diet.

In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:05 pm

Jhana4 wrote:Al Gore on Global Warming: Eat Less Meat

While Al Gore’s highly-acclaimed and award-winning documentary “An Inconvenient Truth” may have conveniently neglected to highlight the harmful impact of our dietary choices, in a recent interview, the former vice-president suggests curbing our meat consumption to help curb global warming.


I noticed that too in the documentary by Al Gore. His family farm switched from tobacco to Angus beef since he disliked tobacco so much, but that doesn't sound like much of an improvement, considering this cause.

And then he went driving around in the film, with a car that looks like a Lincoln, sort of a mini-limo. Why didn't he drive around in a Prius or another hybrid, such as the Ford Escape hybrid? He missed some opportunities to set a good example in that movie, but failed, in my opinion.

P.S. And then he also was showing several clips throughout the documentary about how he got screwed out of the year 2000 election. True, but a total non-sequitir since it has nothing to do with global warming.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:38 pm

Time magazine just namedPeter Singer’s Animal Liberation as one of the top 100 nonfiction books written since 1923:

In writing what has become known as “the bible of the animal-liberation movement,” ethicist Peter Singer did not set out to make us love animals any more than we may (or may not) already have. Instead, he set out to persuade us on rational grounds that humans (themselves animals) must reject causing unnecessary pain to other beings who can “suffer and/or experience enjoyment.” How can it be moral to torture pigs — for torture it is, as Singer matter-of-factly puts forth the realities of farming — just so we can have pork for dinner?


The book is often credited with launching the modern animal rights movement


The passage above was quoted from here
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:45 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:I noticed that too in the documentary by Al Gore. His family farm switched from tobacco to Angus beef since he disliked tobacco so much, but that doesn't sound like much of an improvement, considering this cause.

And then he went driving around in the film, with a car that looks like a Lincoln, sort of a mini-limo. Why didn't he drive around in a Prius or another hybrid, such as the Ford Escape hybrid? He missed some opportunities to set a good example in that movie, but failed, in my opinion.


I generally don't criticize the the environmental impact of other people's habits. Even conscientious people can still have habits that are not so green, a lot of it is locked into our infrastructure and the way we live ( which is one of the best reasons for having no more than 2 children....a human living in the 1st world can only minimize their environmental footprint so much ). However, given his documentary I completely agree with you about they embarrassing hypocrisy of his habits.

BTW, I read an interesting book by some scientists who say that some habit changes are so much more important for helping the environment than other habits that these habits should be given priority, even to the point of dispensing with the other green "to dos":

The Top 11 Green Habits
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:40 pm

"Running for her life: one cow's fight for freedom"
Image
In late May, Yvonne, a six-year-old slaughter-bound cow, escaped from a German farm and ran for her life.

In her quest for freedom, she spent nearly 100 days hiding in the forests of Bavaria. Garnering international attention, she eluded capture by police, farmers, countless good samaritans and animal advocates, and hunters (until authorities called off the "hunt"). Some joined the search in hopes of taking home a $14,500 reward offered by Bild, a German tabloid. A radio station rented a helicopter equipped with thermal imaging cameras, animal advocates tried to lure her with a bull ox, her sister, and her son while animal psychics attempted to talk with her -- all to no avail.

Against the odds, Yvonne, who had been just days away from slaughter when she bolted from the farm, had escaped a certain death. She was determined to preserve her newfound freedom -- and her life.

According to the Guardian, after more than three months on the run, Yvonne is now safe at Gut Aiderbichl, a nearby animal sanctuary. She was finally caught by an area farmer who said Yvonne wandered into his meadow to befriend his cows, and he managed to coax her into a fenced field. She didn't give up that easily though. Her spirited resistance required the assistance of tranquilizers to safely transport her to the sanctuary where she has been reunited with her rescued son and her sister.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:02 pm

Bless her, may she live long and never wind up as a hamburger.

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the great vegetarian debate

Postby Tathagathava » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:09 pm

Some Sect of the Buddhism required to go Vegetarian,they say it's for promote compassion (metta) by not eating meat.

But in Theravada,in a Sutta,Buddha say that you can eating meat if you not kill the animal first.
and Buddha say too that if you present a food that contain meat product to a monk,the monk will receive if The monk did not hear,or see when the animal was killed

and Buddha suggest that Dog,snake,Wild animals,and elephant's meat should not be eaten.Dog is a man best friend,they help you to do something.Snake is a disgusting animal.If you eat Wild Animals,you can spread the wild athmosphere,and can attract the wild animals,while the elephant was a king's ride

that's all,Correct Me If I'm Wrong :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: :smile: :smile:
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:48 pm

Age, intelligence and education do not matter. In every crowd there is always at least one person who will revert to a child-like state to put on a "skit" when something out of the ordinary is mentioned. So you meditate? "Ooooommmmmmm". Do you take karate? "ooooo weeeee, chop, chop". We all know what happens when you mention legumes :). However, this information is fairly useful and intelligent to consider so I thought I would post this picture of a chart:

Image
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:39 pm

Very instructive Thank you :clap:

Some interesting facts about meat consumption:

Though some 800 million people on the planet now suffer from hunger or malnutrition, the majority of corn and soy grown in the world feeds cattle, pigs and chickens. This despite the inherent inefficiencies: about two to five times more grain is required to produce the same amount of calories through livestock as through direct grain consumption, according to Rosamond Naylor, an associate professor of economics at Stanford University. It is as much as 10 times more in the case of grain-fed beef in the United States.

The environmental impact of growing so much grain for animal feed is profound. Agriculture in the United States — much of which now serves the demand for meat — contributes to nearly three-quarters of all water-quality problems in the nation’s rivers and streams, according to the Environmental Protection Agency.

Because the stomachs of cattle are meant to digest grass, not grain, cattle raised industrially thrive only in the sense that they gain weight quickly. This diet made it possible to remove cattle from their natural environment and encourage the efficiency of mass confinement and slaughter. But it causes enough health problems that administration of antibiotics is routine, so much so that it can result in antibiotic-resistant bacteria that threaten the usefulness of medicines that treat people.

Those grain-fed animals, in turn, are contributing to health problems among the world’s wealthier citizens — heart disease, some types of cancer, diabetes. The argument that meat provides useful protein makes sense, if the quantities are small. But the “you gotta eat meat” claim collapses at American levels. Even if the amount of meat we eat weren’t harmful, it’s way more than enough.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weeki ... wanted=all

Eating meat seems a self destructive and selfish habit.
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby David2 » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:53 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:Eating meat seems a self destructive and selfish habit.


Yes, that's true, at least if you are not a monk.
The most fundamental problem is that people do not understand that or, even worse, pretend to not have noticed it.
That's samsara.
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the great vegetarian debate

Postby m0rl0ck » Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:36 pm

David2 wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:Eating meat seems a self destructive and selfish habit.


Yes, that's true, at least if you are not a monk.
The most fundamental problem is that people do not understand that or, even worse, pretend to not have noticed it.
That's samsara.



Now that you mention the buddhist angle, i wonder what kind of karma being in possession of the above information and continuing to eat meat anyway might create. Having the ability to starve or make healthy other human beings with ones own dietary choices seems a responsibility not to be taken lightly.
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html
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