the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22952
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:23 am

alan wrote:Some fats are good! I'll keep saying this until people believe it.
As for coconut oil, soy isolate, MSM, Noni, garlic, eating meat, not eating meat, dairy product, etc., etc., etc., etc., educated opinions vary.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

alan
Posts: 2766
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby alan » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:38 am

Incorrect. And as usual, pointlessly contrarian.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22952
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:00 am

alan wrote:Incorrect. And as usual, pointlessly contrarian.
Not at all incorrect, nor contrarian. You are asking us to believe you, based upon what? Your true belief, it would seem. You post a link singing the praises of coconut oil, which maybe all the things the linked article says it is, but it is not unlike any number of links that could be posted, writen by degree holding individuals with tons of footnotes, singing the praises of or damning any number of nutritional things. Other than stating you believe it and a link, you have made no real argument that vegetarianism is a cultish thing as you claim (which is rather insulting for the obvious reasons), that vegies are closed minded, etc, etc.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

alan
Posts: 2766
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby alan » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:20 am

I offer you information. Take it or don't. That is all I can do.
Much better you take it.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22952
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 07, 2011 6:25 am

alan wrote:I offer you information. Take it or don't. That is all I can do.
Much better you take it.
Other than your link, you really have offered no information other than a negative opinion or two.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:47 am

PeterB wrote:...frankly so much of this discussion seems to be at base narcissistic,


Narcissistic would be eating whatever one likes without considering the conseqences.

Spiny

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:00 am

PeterB wrote:CTR..." Oh of course I forget you are a westerner and so you assume that one cow is more sentient than a thousand beetles ".


Nice story, but basically flawed. It isn't a case of killing either the cow or the beetles, because the beetles would be killed anyway in the process of growing grain to feed the cow. So if we eat the cow we're responsible for killing both the cow and the beetles.
Plus which you could feed something like 3 times as many people by feeding them the grain instead of feeding it to the cow then eating the cow.

Spiny

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:02 am

alan wrote:Vegetarianism has devolved into a simple-minded cult that refuses to accept new dietary science.


"Simple-minded" would be to characterise those with a different view as a "cult".

Spiny

User avatar
Spiny O'Norman
Posts: 851
Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:46 am
Location: Suffolk, England

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:06 am

retrofuturist wrote:Taking it upon ourselves to define what's dhammic vs what's adhammic? I think we know where that leads... :spy:


Yep, it's a slippery slope. ;)

Spiny

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:16 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
PeterB wrote:...frankly so much of this discussion seems to be at base narcissistic,


Narcissistic would be eating whatever one likes without considering the conseqences.

Spiny


Actually, no.

narcissism [ˈnɑːsɪˌsɪzəm], narcism [ˈnɑːˌsɪzəm]
n
1. (Psychology) an exceptional interest in or admiration for oneself, esp one's physical appearance
2. (Psychology) sexual satisfaction derived from contemplation of one's own physical or mental endowments
[from Narcissus]
narcissist n
narcissistic adj
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

morning mist
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby morning mist » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:28 pm

alan wrote:There are serious questions about the theory that saturated fats are the main culprit in the obesity epidemic, or that they contribute to heart disease. It is easy to research this.


It is one of the factor if you take more than what you need. What is the healthy percentage of saturated (not unsaturated) fats to consume ?
Besides , saturated fats can be found in other sources and not just animal fat.

I have minimized animal fat and sugary food intake a great deal most of my life and it keeps me fit even when not exercising .

About coconut oil, I haven't been using coconut oil but fresh coconut juice straight from the coconut is my favorite. Jamba juice and other health food use coconut water in their drink mix. We also use coconut milk for cooking a variety of dishes. I would prefer to drink coconut milk over the regular milk because I don't like the taste, but I bought some coconut milk and it tasted watery. I wonder which brand has coconut milk without water?
with metta,

morning mist
Posts: 251
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:31 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby morning mist » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:42 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
alan wrote:Vegetarianism has devolved into a simple-minded cult that refuses to accept new dietary science.


"Simple-minded" would be to characterise those with a different view as a "cult".

Spiny


Alan, are you suggesting that vegetarians can't be healthy or that they need animal fat or meat to be healthy? There are countless people who have been life long vegetarians and are perfectly healthy. " Dietary science" doesn't refute vegetarian diet.
with metta,

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:52 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
PeterB wrote:CTR..." Oh of course I forget you are a westerner and so you assume that one cow is more sentient than a thousand beetles ".


Nice story, but basically flawed. It isn't a case of killing either the cow or the beetles, because the beetles would be killed anyway in the process of growing grain to feed the cow. So if we eat the cow we're responsible for killing both the cow and the beetles.
Plus which you could feed something like 3 times as many people by feeding them the grain instead of feeding it to the cow then eating the cow.

Spiny

Not a story, an account of a conversation.
I think you miss his point. But I think in fact that you are unlikely to get his point because of his basic stance.

Personally I think I will add all vegetarian threads to my current list of threads that in my view are a waste of time..threads that ALWAYS end up with people talk past each other from what ever position they start from, and from which no resolution EVER happens.
Come to think of it that list is now up to two threads ...this and rebirth.
Always heat...seldom light. Although I would like to bump the most enlightening to date....

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeterB » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:56 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
morning mist wrote:I agree that Buddhism isn't vegetarianism, but it is also not against vegetarianism either.
That depends on a person's reasons for being a vegetarian, and how it affects the way that they relate to others. What Buddhism teaches is that attachment to views is obstructive to spiritual development. Can anyone be a strict vegetarian or vegan without clinging to views?

Its this over-scrupulous attitude and wrong understanding of what kamma is that makes some vegetarians so intolerant. Then there's the vegans who think that vegetarians are not truly ethical because they eat dairy products or wear leather shoes, etc.

There is a way that one can be a vegetarian or vegan, but without any attachment to views. One who makes pragmatic choices, and is not averse to accepting and eating meat or fish offered by others is the one who practices correctly. No greed for the taste, and right view regarding kamma are more important than what one eats.

Bumpty bump.
I now foreswear all debate on this thread...just as I previously foreswore all debate on the infinitely tedious Great Rebirth debate thread..... :smile: Lifes too short.
Particularly for bean sprouts and small mushrooms.

corrine
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:33 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby corrine » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:34 pm

I am a vegetarian, and have been one for four decades, because I wish to cause as little suffering as possible to my fellow living beings. I do not think it is up to me to judge which beings have more right to life. Vegetarianism has not had a negative effect on my health. I am in my sixties and probably more healthy than most women my age. I am very physically active. My diet consists primarily of fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains, prepared as simply as possible. I do not kill anything. I do remove insects from my home, but I do not kill them. I have never understood why people need to discuss this. It is better for the environment and, I believe, better for one's health, and certainly better for the animals that would have been slaughtered. I cannot see a down side to being vegetarian. Yes, many of my friends criticize me for what they see as my extreme food choices, but that is their problem, not mine. I choose to see all my fellow creatures as valuable and worthy of respect and kindness. It is so simple and basic. If something causes pain and suffering to other living things, don't do it.

Just my humble opinion.

corrine

User avatar
Lazy_eye
Posts: 970
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Lazy_eye » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:32 pm

PeterB wrote:: Lifes too short.
Particularly for bean sprouts and small mushrooms.


Ha ha :)

Portabella steaks can be pretty tasty, though!

Khitij
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Khitij » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:09 pm

I have been vegetarian for the past 5 months and vegan for the past 4, and feel that it is the right choice to make to try to alleviate the suffering of other animals in samsara. During the Buddha's time, he did not want the Sangha to offend the householders. But at his parinibbana, he reversed this rule. But today, due to our consumer system, the meat is killed for us! It is quite cruel. But do not judge vegetarian people as being automatically superior to meat eaters. Some vegetarians have also been cruel (Pol Pot, who was the cruel ruler of Cambodia (under the Khmer Rouge), is an example of this). This arrogance is what the Buddha is referring to- and it creates arrogance and a stronger sense of self. It is to be done out of compassion, NOT out of arrogance (I'm better than you etc.).
I fully believe that the Tathagata said...
Meat eating extinguishes the seed of great compassion.
~Siddhartha Gautama


:cry: -The poor animal that suffers


P.S. Besides, if we were all devout Buddhists, there would be no meat eating (no killing)!
P.P.S. What if you were were one of those animals in your next rebirth? How would you feel? They clearly are sentient and do suffer.

With great compassion,
Shre

:namaste:

User avatar
bodom
Posts: 5347
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby bodom » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:22 pm

Khitij wrote:
Meat eating extinguishes the seed of great compassion.

~Siddhartha Gautama


Hi khitij

As this is a Theravadin forum I am wondering if could you please provide a source from the Pali Canon for the above statement that you are attributing to the Buddha?

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 22952
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:17 am

bodom wrote:
Khitij wrote:
Meat eating extinguishes the seed of great compassion.

~Siddhartha Gautama


Hi khitij

As this is a Theravadin forum I am wondering if could you please provide a source from the Pali Canon for the above statement that you are attributing to the Buddha?

:anjali:
It is from the Lankavatara Sutra and probably other tathagatagarbha sutras.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:04 am

Khitij wrote:P.S. Besides, if we were all devout Buddhists, there would be no meat eating (no killing)!

Well, I think the vast majority of Burmese are avid meat eaters and are probably the most devout Buddhists I have ever met (that is, those that I met).
Don't conflate the eating of meat with killing - they're not the same.

If you wish to adopt a vegetarian or vegan diet as an expression of compassion arising from your practice, that is excellent. But it is no better nor worse from a kammic point of view than a diet that is not vegetarian nor vegan.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..


Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: anthbrown84, Caodemarte, chownah, TRobinson465 and 22 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine