the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:46 pm

In the above translation, I read "engage in a business" as something that involves both seller and the buyer. Is that translator's intention... or just my way of reading it? :anjali:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:31 pm

beeblebrox wrote:In the above translation, I read "engage in a business" as something that involves both seller and the buyer. Is that translator's intention... or just my way of reading it?


I'm not sure who you are asking, but ...

'... vaṇijjā (trade) upāsakena ('one who draws near' i.e. to the saṅghā = a layman) akaraṇīyā ('should not be done')...'

Because vaṇijjā indicates a reciprocal relationship, the responsibility is on both parties.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby beeblebrox » Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:45 pm

Thanks for clarification. It makes a lot of sense then. :anjali:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:24 pm

I haven't got a large intestine, which means leafy greens and other insoluble fibers are often painful to digest. What's heartening is that a vegetarian diet can be constructed around even this deficiency; indeed, for the most part leafy greens and other fibrous food items are recommended for consumption largely because the fiber is essential for the health of the large intestine.

What this means for me (and potentially others in a similar situation) is that a "beige diet" is a solid vegetarian choice (...pun?). It is definitely not the best choice for one's diet, and I wouldn't recommend it for anyone with a complete digestive tract, but since a multivitamin supplement turns out to be enough to cover a body such as this with respect to plant-based vitamins and minerals (just remember to get chewable ones, or break the pills in half) I have found that removing meat from my diet while still getting sufficient nutrition is possible without pain.

However, this goes against prevailing nutrition science; I mention this here lest others are similarly handicapped and experiencing a moral quandary. One benefit of this is that for many years I've had to think outside the box on this topic, and as a result I think there are two issues connected to this vegetarian issue which are often overlooked: frequency of eating, and exercise.

1. Frequency

Three square meals a day, six smaller meals, one large meal at breakfast, one large meal at dinner - there are many eating patterns, as even a cursory look at the history of human food consumption will show. Therefore, perhaps some here will be interested in understanding calorie restriction, especially since it seems to me that historically, Buddhist monastics would have gone on and off such a "diet" depending on where they wandered, with apparently little ill effect. Indeed, the Buddha's report of health due to eating only two, then only one meal a day may have some science to back it up.

2. Fitness

Cardiovascular health and maintaining proper bone density are just a couple of the benefits which come from staying in motion as a daily habit, but I wonder about the morality of consuming massive amounts of food in preparation for marathons and other extreme fitness pursuits. Indeed, isn't it just this sort of intense exercise which calls for the most meat consumption in order to maintain health?

I believe these two issues deserve more attention than they tend to receive in these sorts of discussions.

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Eccedustin » Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:26 am

I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:31 pm

Eccedustin wrote:I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.


Let's see: Buddha established Buddhism over 2500 years ago... :thinking:

Wow!! :bow: :clap: You must have set some kind of a record for vegans! Congrats!!!! :woohoo:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:38 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:

Because vaṇijjā indicates a reciprocal relationship, the responsibility is on both parties.


This makes sense because without customers for a product there would be no need for a supplier.

Spiny
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:34 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Eccedustin wrote:I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.


Let's see: Buddha established Buddhism over 2500 years ago... :thinking:

Wow!! :bow: :clap: You must have set some kind of a record for vegans! Congrats!!!! :woohoo:


I know you're joking, but he meant he was vegetarian before he became Buddhist.

And no record, there were plenty of vegetarians and vegans before Buddhism; the Jains, some others, first humans, etc. :tongue:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:33 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Eccedustin wrote:I am a vegetarian. I have been since before Buddhism.


Let's see: Buddha established Buddhism over 2500 years ago... :thinking:

Wow!! :bow: :clap: You must have set some kind of a record for vegans! Congrats!!!! :woohoo:


I know you're joking, but he meant he was vegetarian before he became Buddhist.


What gave it away? The emoticons? :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby RMSmith » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:55 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:What gave it away? The emoticons? :tongue:


Methinks sarcasm is vegetarian. :jumping:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mojo » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:20 am

I'm ovo-lacto veg at home always, though I take a fish oil supplement. I'll always choose the veg option if one is available when away from home and whatever is offered if no choice is available.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:07 am

I think fewer of us would eat meat if we had to kill and butcher the animal ourselves.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby LonesomeYogurt » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:31 pm

I'm a vegetarian mostly because I think it really helps me cultivate non-attachment to food. Having a simple and healthful diet of primarily vegetables and grains and fruits and such can really help a person learn to enjoy simplicity.

I think butchering animals is obviously a hideous thing to do, but I realize that some people don't have any problem with ordering a steak at a restaurant or anything like that. I personally don't feel comfortable doing so but that's fine. As long as they aren't having the meat slaughtered for them, or doing the slaughtering themselves, it's not a breach of any ethics in my mind.

With that said, I think vegetarianism is generally a great choice for everyone (barring certain medical conditions) for a lot of reasons and I'd highly, highly recommend it for its health benefits as well as its ability to help in the cultivation of metta. But it's not a sin to consume meat in and of itself, at least to me. But you can't be a Buddhist and hunt or butcher or sell meat for a living.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Reductor » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:33 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:I think fewer of us would eat meat if we had to kill and butcher the animal ourselves.

Spiny


I have killed and butchered wild game, and it was all to easy to eat the proceeds. Just toss 'em in the freezer, pull 'em out, then thaw and cook.

Humans, by and large, have little trouble dismissing the suffering of others, and are very adept at forgetting.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:17 pm

This is a very long thread, so my apologies if I mentioned this already:

In Ethiopia there are no slaughter-houses, so everyone buys the animal (usually goat or sheep or chicken, no pigs) and then cut its throat at home. Due to this, almost all foreign diplomats become vegetarian while they are serving in the Embassy during their time in Ethiopia.

There was one child in the neighborhood of my wife's family who didn't like seeing the animal being slaughtered and refused to eat the meat. He was vegetarian for a few years, but then perhaps gradually became desensitized to the process and then started eating meat.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:03 pm

thereductor wrote:Humans, by and large, have little trouble dismissing the suffering of others, and are very adept at forgetting.


As Buddhists shouldn't we aim a little higher?

Spiny

PS not aim higher in a literal way :jumping:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Reductor » Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:22 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
thereductor wrote:Humans, by and large, have little trouble dismissing the suffering of others, and are very adept at forgetting.


As Buddhists shouldn't we aim a little higher?

Spiny

PS not aim higher in a literal way :jumping:


My error was reading your post as a generalization of humans, rather than just Buddhists. In which case I am skeptical of most people's aility to give up what they enjoy for the sake of nonhuman (and human) beings.

In regard to buddhists, it is true that nonharm is highly valued, but so is meditation. Yet very few of us perfect meditation, and many don't even begin. The reasons for that imperfection, of both meditation and nonharm, are highly individual and should not be discounted only because that person considers themselves buddhist. Their prior conditioning could take a long time to be resolved regardless of what they may consider themselves. And since dhamma is not dogmatic, it behooves us to not be dogmatic either. At most we can offer counsel and an example.

But I imagin that, 79 pages in, this view has been expressed before. But who wants to read so many pages, right? Haha.

As an aside, I have been trying to follow a vegetarian diet for many months now. I suppose my diet was actually flexitarian. Only a few days ago did I resolve to abandon all animal products, and that after the six years of pondering and gradual reduction. It took six years for me to reach this point, so it seems only fair to allow others to arrive in their own time.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:24 pm

Discovered this today during readings:

2. âmagandha Sutta-The Smell of raw flesh.


239". Millets, palm shoots, chick peas, fallen fruits, roots and what is got from the cow

And that gained rightfully without hurting beings, and for sensual reasons lies are not told

240. Kassapa, drinking well prepared sweet drinks of fine rice,

Offered by others undergoing much trouble, do you partake the smell of raw flesh.

241 'Whatever the relation of Brahmà says, the smell of raw flesh is not suitable for me.

Partaking eatables like fine rice, with well prepared flesh of birds

I ask you this, how does the smell of raw flesh come to you. "

242 "Destroying life, hurting, cutting binding stealing, telling lies, deceit and cheating

Hypocrisy, and going to others' wives, that is the smell of raw flesh, not partaking flesh.

243. Humans not restrained in sensuality, greedy for tastes and mixed with filth

Gone wrong with the view there's no results for actions, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

244. Hard hearted back biters without compassion, conceited and betrayers of friends,

Do not give anything to anyone, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

245. Angry, intoxicated, stuborn, opposing, crafty, jealous and boasting,

Measuring, conceited, and with wrong intimacy, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

246. The evil, stricken with debt, asked to repay would run away,

The worst of men doing evil in this world, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

247. Unrestrained humans get work done worrying others,

Evil, bloody handed, with rough and malicious talk, that is the smell of raw flesh, not eating flesh.

248 The greedy ones destroying the foetus, always work hard, later go to darkness,

They fall into hell upside down, that is the smell of raw flesh not eating flesh.

249. Eating well prepared fish and meat, going naked, shaving, wearing a headdress, leaving perspiration

on the body and pulling out hairs of the head and beard .

Observing the fire sacrifice, practising eel-wriggling, muttering verses and observing the seasons

Do not purify people of their doubts.

250. Protect the streams1 and abide with controlled mental faculties, be gentle and straightforward

according to the Teaching

Bonds given up, dispel all unpleasantness, the wise do not talk of the seen and heard.

251. When the Blessed One explained its meaning again and again, the brahmins learned it.

The Blessed One explained the smell of raw flesh with beautiful verses.

252. Hearing the good words of the Enlightened One for the cessation of the smell of raw flesh,

Those with low minds worshipped the Thus Gone One and begged for the going forth to end all unpleasantness.

source: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... gga-e.html
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A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:47 pm

A Plant's Eye View - Michael Pollan:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/michae ... _view.html

What if human consciousness isn't the end-all and be-all of Darwinism? What if we are all just pawns in corn's clever strategy game to rule the Earth? Author Michael Pollan asks us to see the world from a plant's-eye view.

Michael Pollan is the author of The Omnivore’s Dilemma, in which he explains how our food not only affects our health but has far-reaching political, economic, and environmental implications. His new book is In Defense of Food.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:18 pm

Vegetarians Prone to Alzheimers in India:

Thanks to DK in Buddha Forum

http://buddhaforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=1242
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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