the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Jhana4 wrote:Survey: 21% of U.S. college students limit meat consumption
http://sustainablefoodnews.com/story.php?news_id=13564" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... to spend more on beer?

:toast:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: ... to spend more on beer?

:toast:
the great rebirth debate
the great vegetarian debate

Where's our great beer debate? :evil: :mrgreen:
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cooran
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Anyone had any experience with this diet?

The 'heart attack proof' diet
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/1 ... ?hpt=hp_c2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His book is called:
Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease: The Revolutionary, Scientifically Proven, Nutrition-Based Cure [Paperback]
By: Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr.
http://books.google.com/books/about/Pre ... hHaBiKKU8C" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Chris
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DNS
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

The Esselstyn diet is tough for most Americans to swallow: no meat, no eggs, no dairy, no added oils.
It's basically a vegan diet without added oils. Dr. Macdougal has advocated a similar or same diet since the 1970s. My wife and I tried it for a little while, but found it was kind of boring without oils. :tongue: The vegan part is not too hard to do with some creative recipes and adjusting ethnic foods such as Indian, Chinese, etc., to a vegan recipe, but without oil it is difficult to get the foods to taste good.
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by David2 »

David N. Snyder wrote:but without oil it is difficult to get the foods to taste good.
You are right... but probably we just have to high expectations... when I say "we" I mean most people in society.

Most people want food to taste really good and interesting... but healthy food does not have to taste very good, it does not have to taste interesting (to be healthy).

The incentive to eat should rather come from being hungry than from wanting tongue sense pleasure.
And of course, if you are hungry, everything will taste better and more interesting than when you are not hungry at all.
Last edited by David2 on Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
alan
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by alan »

If you accept the fact that humans are the product of hundreds of millions of years of evolution, then it follows that we ate our fair share of animals along the way. I don't think you will ever find a serious dietician who would claim to have found a traditional society that has survived on a vegan diet. If so, I would like to hear it.
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cooran
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by cooran »

Hello Davids 1 and 2, alan,

I've been practising to try to see 'food' as just ''fuel of the body'' lately - rather than something pleasurable.
It doesn't always work, but is beginning to work more often than not.

I've ordered the book by Dr. Caldwell B. Esselstyn Jr. as both my mother and elder brother have had heart problems.

Just have to see how I go if I try the new way of eating.

alan said: I don't think you will ever find a serious dietician who would claim to have found a traditional society that has survived on a vegan diet. If so, I would like to hear it.
Alan, I'd actually trust a Cardiologist in this case above a dietitian - having worked for many years in a large health system with both professions.
‘’ Certain cultures around the world do not suffer from heart disease, the No. 1 killer in the Western world.
Esselstyn's practice took a dramatic turn -- from performing surgery to promoting nutrition. For more than 20 years, the Cleveland Clinic doctor has tried to get Americans to eat like the Papua New Guinea highlanders, rural Chinese, central Africans and the Tarahumara Indians of Mexico.’’
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/08/1 ... roof.diet/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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the great vegetarian debate

Post by alan »

I don't see the logical steps there. Your quote kind of hints that I'm missing something. But a careful read shows that is not true. As for the vid, it's typical lightweight CNN junk.
Rational proof, please. Show me why human animals, who evolved eating other animals over an almost unbelievable length of time, are now, for no reason asserted, subject to a disease that did not kill off our predecessors. I don't buy the idea.
Has there aver been a culture that was purely vegan? Not that I can tell.
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by David2 »

alan wrote: are now, for no reason asserted, subject to a disease that did not kill off our predecessors..
For most time of human history, life expectancy of humans was very low, somewhere around 35 years, maybe a bit more or less.
In the past, people did not live long, so it did not have a large influence if they ate food that is unhealthy for the heart. (It is not very probable that you die because of a heart disease before age 40, even if you eat very unhealthy.)

Nowadays, conditions have changed a lot, life expectancy has doubled more or less. So the importance of a healthy diet has increased a lot.
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cooran
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This might be of interest:
The Kitava Study
http://www.scribd.com/doc/18222663/Kitava-Study" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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octathlon
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by octathlon »

Hi Cooran,
I saw that article (in the OP) yesterday and found it very interesting so I googled for more details. It seems to come down to the amount of omega-3 (good) vs. omega-6 (not good) fat that we are taking in, and if we eat a lot of omega-6 it crowds out the omega-3, so even if you take a lot of fish oil or flaxseed oil to get your -3, it doesn't do much good if you still eat too much -6.
Here's a link to a blog of someone who has experimented with different diets and then compared blood chemistry results: http://www.happyhealthylonglife.com/hap ... sults.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One interesting thing I read was that in spring/summer, animals (and people) would naturally eat the available leafy stuff (high -3) and in the fall/winter when they need to store fat for the winter, they eat the now-available seeds and nuts which are high in -6 and cause the metabolism to slow down and fat to be stored.

Anyway, I looked at what I ate and of course it was the opposite of what the Esselstyn diet recommends. For example I eat a lot of peanut butter, sunflower seeds, etc. and they are almost all omega-6 fat. I would like to figure out the healthiest way to eat but there is just too much conflicting info out there. I like the idea of experimenting with a certain diet for a while and observing the effects.

Since I would say food is one of the most significant areas of craving I have, I'm interested in learning to view food as simply fuel. The problem is, I think I am really just suppressing my cravings rather than actually letting go of anything. I believe there are specific meditations to help with this.
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

alan wrote: Rational proof, please. Show me why human animals, who evolved eating other animals over an almost unbelievable length of time, are now, for no reason asserted, subject to a disease that did not kill off our predecessors. I don't buy the idea.
Has there aver been a culture that was purely vegan? Not that I can tell.
As David2 mentioned, many of the traditional societies had life expectancies that were too short, so there was no chance to develop heart disease.

I have heard that argument several times, that we humans have evolved to eat meat. But if that were the case, why is it that meat and other high fat foods raise cholesterol levels, blood pressure, triglycerides, and by the account of most studies to heart disease?
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

Hi cooran, David2, octathlon,

Good points about eating food mindfully for sustenance. That is definitely a goal of Dhamma practice and a good thing to do. By doing so, it can be easier to eat healthy, since taste would not be so much of an issue. If the issue is sustenance, there should be no reason to not eat healthy.

At the moment, I still enjoy some good tasting foods, but still try to keep them as healthy as possible, for example mostly vegan. I "spice" it up with curries and other seasonings, but I agree definitely sustenance should be our goal.
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by octathlon »

David N. Snyder wrote:At the moment, I still enjoy some good tasting foods, but still try to keep them as healthy as possible, for example mostly vegan. I "spice" it up with curries and other seasonings, but I agree definitely sustenance should be our goal.
Don't worry, spices like curry, cinammon, and ginger are good for you. :smile: They help lower insulin and cholesterol. I don't have a link just at hand, but if you google you will find plenty of sources.
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the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

octathlon wrote: Don't worry, spices like curry, cinammon, and ginger are good for you. :smile: They help lower insulin and cholesterol. I don't have a link just at hand, but if you google you will find plenty of sources.
Yes, exactly; some delicious foods are healthy too, such as curry veggies, curry tofu, veggie-ginger stir fry. But if you add coconut milk and/or oil, it may not be compatible with the Esselstyn diet.
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