the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:41 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: If a farmer sells both rabbit meat and cabbages, what's the difference between buying and eating the rabbit meat and the cabbages?


The rabbits have been killed? ;)
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:00 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:81 pages! This topic has been boiled, stewed, and fried to death. Perhaps all new contributors should be forced to read it all before adding another post. :stirthepot:


And practice the repulsiveness of nutriment.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:35 pm

Ben wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:81 pages! This topic has been boiled, stewed, and fried to death. Perhaps all new contributors should be forced to read it all before adding another post. :stirthepot:


And practice the repulsiveness of nutriment.


Please don't kill bunnies though! :jumping:
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Kim OHara » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:55 am

In the light of the last two posts, perhaps I shouldn't add anything. But here is some material, from a source most of us here wouldn't expect to be discussing the issue, which is worth a look. One excerpt:
The idea that everything in the world consists of two things, (1) human beings and (2) “resources” to be used by human beings, is the very root of our “environmental” problems. The pathologically anthropocentric thinking that got us into this mess is not going to get us out of it.
... I see ending the mass production of “meat animals” as an essential step towards restoring some semblance of ecological balance and preventing the mass extinction of most species on this planet (including those not considered “useful resources” for human beings).


It comes from an 'open topics' discussion thread on RealClimate, http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2012/07/unforced-variations-july/, and they get to grips with the environmental costs of meat with a level of scientific research skills most of us can only gawp at in amazement.
So ... if you're feeling adventurous, go and look over their shoulders. Start at comment #101 or thereabouts, when they first get on to the subject.

:namaste:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:41 pm

Hi, Kim. I get it. The idea is to cause no harm, but the reality is that something, animal or plant gets harmed when you eat it unless it is already deceased. One of the ways to avoid that is to go the route of The Fruit and Nut-atarians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

Such as these eat only what plants produce for specific consumption in the hopes that their seeds will be excreted in locations, which will help them to spread their kind. Therefore, Squirrels, chipmonks, seed eating birds, and humans that copy their dietary behaviors are the only ones, who are actually complying with Buddha's precepts:

1. Do no harm to sentient beings
and 2. Take not that, which has not been freely given.

We Vegans hold no higher moral ground than carnivores, otherwise, as we also take life and that which has not been freely given. So, my suggestion would be for us to ease up on lecturing others.

I also see merit in dining on "road kill" since the practice reduces waste, (only if tire tread marks appeal to you) and improves the environmental esthetic. This practice is called scavenging, which makes scavengers such as vultures and condors more morally correct in accordance with our Buddhist precepts than vegans as well. :anjali:
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But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Such as these eat only what plants produce for specific consumption in the hopes that their seeds will be excreted in locations, which will help them to spread their kind. Therefore, Squirrels, chipmonks, seed eating birds, and humans that copy their dietary behaviors are the only ones, who are actually complying with Buddha's precepts:


Actually, they are complying with Mahavira's precepts. ;)

The Buddha's way is not that extreme. Although there is some evidence that there may be some rudimentary form of consciousness in plants, it is still far from the central nervous system and consciousness of a sentient being of the Animal Kingdom. And in the Buddha's cosmology there is no rebirth to the Plant Kingdom.

edit:
In spite of what I said above though, I think the diet you mention is an excellent one for those who have the discipline to do so. It does provide the least harm, least violence.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:26 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Such as these eat only what plants produce for specific consumption in the hopes that their seeds will be excreted in locations, which will help them to spread their kind. Therefore, Squirrels, chipmonks, seed eating birds, and humans that copy their dietary behaviors are the only ones, who are actually complying with Buddha's precepts:


Actually, they are complying with Mahavira's precepts. ;)

The Buddha's way is not that extreme. Although there is some evidence that there may be some rudimentary form of consciousness in plants, it is still far from the central nervous system and consciousness of a sentient being of the Animal Kingdom. And in the Buddha's cosmology there is no rebirth to the Plant Kingdom.

edit:
In spite of what I said above though, I think the diet you mention is an excellent one for those who have the discipline to do so. It does provide the least harm, least violence.


Thanks, Dave. Jainism, Mahavira's path does in fact lead to the least harm with violence being of most harm of all harms there are to be caused. Thank you for pointing this out to me. However, scavengers might disagree as they cause not harm, and in addition clean up our roads for us as well.

Image

Such survival strategies are necessary for many of The World's poorest and homeless. Those who would never raise a bowl before their neithbors.

Image

Or, who allow their pets to do so:

Image
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Eccedustin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:06 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Hi, Kim. I get it. The idea is to cause no harm, but the reality is that something, animal or plant gets harmed when you eat it unless it is already deceased. One of the ways to avoid that is to go the route of The Fruit and Nut-atarians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

Such as these eat only what plants produce for specific consumption in the hopes that their seeds will be excreted in locations, which will help them to spread their kind. Therefore, Squirrels, chipmonks, seed eating birds, and humans that copy their dietary behaviors are the only ones, who are actually complying with Buddha's precepts:

1. Do no harm to sentient beings
and 2. Take not that, which has not been freely given.

We Vegans hold no higher moral ground than carnivores, otherwise, as we also take life and that which has not been freely given. So, my suggestion would be for us to ease up on lecturing others.

I also see merit in dining on "road kill" since the practice reduces waste, (only if tire tread marks appeal to you) and improves the environmental esthetic. This practice is called scavenging, which makes scavengers such as vultures and condors more morally correct in accordance with our Buddhist precepts than vegans as well. :anjali:


Plants are not sentient or conscious beings though. No plants have consciousness, thoughts or "feel" pain. Plants "react" to stimuli like all life, but have no nervous system or brains and can't compute feelings or pain or anything of the sort.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Durt_Dawg » Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:09 am

Why do homeboys always gotta go so extreme over views?! Eat meat if ya must, although you should try not to!
Lets b fwendssss!!!!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Kim OHara » Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:51 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:... I also see merit in dining on "road kill" since the practice reduces waste, (only if tire tread marks appeal to you) and improves the environmental esthetic. This practice is called scavenging, which makes scavengers such as vultures and condors more morally correct in accordance with our Buddhist precepts than vegans as well. :anjali:

There's a feral radical conservationist in a series of books by Carl Hiaasen who eats any roadkill that's big enough and fresh enough ... snakes, dogs, 'gators (we're talking Florida here), whatever. Try Skin Tight, Double Whammy, Sick Puppy etc if you like very raw humour with good underlying values - http://www.amazon.com/Carl-Hiaasen/e/B000AQ2LMO.

:namaste:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:03 pm

Greetings Kim,
Kim O'Hara wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:... I also see merit in dining on "road kill" since the practice reduces waste, (only if tire tread marks appeal to you) and improves the environmental esthetic. This practice is called scavenging, which makes scavengers such as vultures and condors more morally correct in accordance with our Buddhist precepts than vegans as well. :anjali:

There's a feral radical conservationist in a series of books by Carl Hiaasen who eats any roadkill that's big enough and fresh enough ... snakes, dogs, 'gators (we're talking Florida here), whatever. Try Skin Tight, Double Whammy, Sick Puppy etc if you like very raw humour with good underlying values - http://www.amazon.com/Carl-Hiaasen/e/B000AQ2LMO.

:namaste:
Kim


Some years ago my wife was working for our social security agency on the outskirts of Melbourne, one of her clients was a mentally ill homeless man who would disappear for months at a time and apparently sustained himself on roadkill. It happens...
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:10 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:I also see merit in dining on "road kill" since the practice reduces waste, (only if tire tread marks appeal to you) and improves the environmental esthetic. This practice is called scavenging, which makes scavengers such as vultures and condors more morally correct in accordance with our Buddhist precepts than vegans as well. :anjali:


Actually, there is no moral difference between eating road kill or leaving it to become road-side fertilizer. Just as there is no moral difference between a vulture eating carrion and a human eating carrion mediated by a supermarket.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:32 pm

Eccedustin wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Hi, Kim. I get it. The idea is to cause no harm, but the reality is that something, animal or plant gets harmed when you eat it unless it is already deceased. One of the ways to avoid that is to go the route of The Fruit and Nut-atarians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

Such as these eat only what plants produce for specific consumption in the hopes that their seeds will be excreted in locations, which will help them to spread their kind. Therefore, Squirrels, chipmonks, seed eating birds, and humans that copy their dietary behaviors are the only ones, who are actually complying with Buddha's precepts:

1. Do no harm to sentient beings , Variously stated: Cause no harm to living beings
and 2. Take not that, which has not been freely given.

We Vegans hold no higher moral ground than carnivores, otherwise, as we also take life and that which has not been freely given. So, my suggestion would be for us to ease up on lecturing others.

I also see merit in dining on "road kill" since the practice reduces waste, (only if tire tread marks appeal to you) and improves the environmental esthetic. This practice is called scavenging, which makes scavengers such as vultures and condors more morally correct in accordance with our Buddhist precepts than vegans as well. :anjali:


Plants are not sentient or conscious beings though. No plants have consciousness, thoughts or "feel" pain. Plants "react" to stimuli like all life, but have no nervous system or brains and can't compute feelings or pain or anything of the sort.


Wrong! Suggest you read and study the latest findings regarding Plant Life. Plants meet all the criterea of life, sentience, and there is no convincing evidence that some plant species are not sapient. Mankind, espescially the Abrahemic religiostics have long demonstrated their ignorance in this regard. Jains understood this thousands of years ago, well before Buddhism, and modern plant neuro-biology has cleared up this point quite convincingly siding with the understanding demonstrated by the respect for plants of The Jains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

This has long been debated by the ignorant, that is no doubt why plants weren't included on Noah's Arc, and why Buddha failed to include them in the 31 Planes of existence, so I will not bother to begin anew in light of such overwhelming ignorance. Suggest you read here if you are truly interested. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6822 and give thanks to plants for the very oxygen that you breathe.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Eccedustin » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:42 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Eccedustin wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Hi, Kim. I get it. The idea is to cause no harm, but the reality is that something, animal or plant gets harmed when you eat it unless it is already deceased. One of the ways to avoid that is to go the route of The Fruit and Nut-atarians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

Such as these eat only what plants produce for specific consumption in the hopes that their seeds will be excreted in locations, which will help them to spread their kind. Therefore, Squirrels, chipmonks, seed eating birds, and humans that copy their dietary behaviors are the only ones, who are actually complying with Buddha's precepts:

1. Do no harm to sentient beings , Variously stated: Cause no harm to living beings
and 2. Take not that, which has not been freely given.

We Vegans hold no higher moral ground than carnivores, otherwise, as we also take life and that which has not been freely given. So, my suggestion would be for us to ease up on lecturing others.

I also see merit in dining on "road kill" since the practice reduces waste, (only if tire tread marks appeal to you) and improves the environmental esthetic. This practice is called scavenging, which makes scavengers such as vultures and condors more morally correct in accordance with our Buddhist precepts than vegans as well. :anjali:


Plants are not sentient or conscious beings though. No plants have consciousness, thoughts or "feel" pain. Plants "react" to stimuli like all life, but have no nervous system or brains and can't compute feelings or pain or anything of the sort.


Wrong! Suggest you read and study the latest findings regarding Plant Life. Plants meet all the criterea of life, sentience, and there is no convincing evidence that some plant species are not sapient. Mankind, espescially the Abrahemic religiostics have long demonstrated their ignorance in this regard. Jains understood this thousands of years ago, well before Buddhism, and modern plant neuro-biology has cleared up this point quite convincingly siding with the understanding demonstrated by the respect for plants of The Jains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

This has long been debated by the ignorant, that is no doubt why plants weren't included on Noah's Arc, and why Buddha failed to include them in the 31 Planes of existence, so I will not bother to begin anew in light of such overwhelming ignorance. Suggest you read here if you are truly interested. viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6822 and give thanks to plants for the very oxygen that you breathe.




I never said that plants are not "living". I said that plants are not "sentient". This means that plants have no thoughts, no emotions, can't 'feel' pain like higher organisms can. Plants only react to stimuli, but can't feel it or perceive it consciously.

If you have some credible scientific studies from peer reviewed journals showing that plants have thoughts, emotions, sentience, consciousness....Please Post them here.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:48 pm

Eccedustin wrote:[



I never said that plants are not "living". I said that plants are not "sentient". This means that plants have no thoughts, no emotions, can't 'feel' pain like higher organisms can. Plants only react to stimuli, but can't feel it or perceive it consciously.

If you have some credible scientific studies from peer reviewed journals showing that plants have thoughts, emotions, sentience, consciousness....Please Post them here.


When you read the links I have already provided and which are included int the Thread called "plants", your doubts born of ignorance will be addressed, assuming you can understand what is written. I am not currently in the mood to address your ignorance. "You" will have to study the topic as others have already or continue in your your state of massive ignorance regarding plants and their prodigious abilities. I will give you a hint:

Begin with the definition of sentience:


sentience or sentiency (ˈsɛnʃəns) from http://www.dictionary.com

— n
1. the state or quality of being sentient; awareness
2. sense perception not involving intelligence or mental perception; feeling

sentiency or sentiency


Then watch this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/stefan ... gence.html
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Eccedustin » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:06 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
When you read the links I have already provided and which are included int the Thread called "plants", your doubts born of ignorance will be addressed, assuming you can understand what is written. I am not currently in the mood to address your ignorance. "You" will have to study the topic as others have already or continue in your your state of massive ignorance regarding plants and their prodigious abilities. I will give you a hint:

Begin with the definition of sentience:


sentience or sentiency (ˈsɛnʃəns) from http://www.dictionary.com

— n
1. the state or quality of being sentient; awareness
2. sense perception not involving intelligence or mental perception; feeling

sentiency or sentiency


So you are using the 2nd definition? "not involving intelligence or mental perception;feeling"?

Plants aren't "conscious". They don't have "thoughts". They don't have mental perceptions or awareness. THe thread or links you've posted support no evidence for the claim that they do.

Then watch this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/stefan ... gence.html
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:48 am

Good friend, You did not watch this, or you wouldn't be asking the questions that you are asking and insisting in ignorance what you are insisting.
Again, your ignorance is "your ignorance" and it is therefore your responsibility to address it, educate yourself and end it." That is why Buddha in his address and advisory to the Kalamas asked us to personally validate and verfiy every one of our views and"not be attached when there is evidence to the contrary of what we believe or have been taught, or out of laziness hold to what is called "common knowledge". Attachment, including "clinging to views and perspectives causes suffering!" : Very Important to watch and read this: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/stefan ... gence.html

And then recommend exploring this site: http://www.plantneurobiology.org/
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:18 pm

Ron-the-Elder,
I am not convinced that plants are sentient even after reading the links you have provided. Does this mean I am ignorant?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:43 pm

chownah wrote:Ron-the-Elder,
I am not convinced that plants are sentient even after reading the links you have provided. Does this mean I am ignorant?
chownah


We are all ignorant about something. We spend most our lives trying to end our ignorance. Could be that you are just attached to your views. That would make you one of the great mass, who suffer. Suggest studying and practicing Buddhism. :anjali:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby waimengwan » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:32 pm

Our Digestive tracts is very similar to animals who eat plants, unlike Carnivores who have a very short one so that meat does not decay in the intestinal tract.

http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html

This study says a lot about what are the natural foods for us.

having said that consuming meat of ruminant animals, creates the demand for such animals to be bred, this leads to more deforestation hence more global warming and methane gases from ruminant animals like cows contribute 20% of methane gas in the world.

Also would we eat meat if we have to kill it ourselves in this time and age? Yes Theravadan monks eat anything, but these are holy monks who hold so many vows and they have pure conduct and practice detachment, what do we do , we just indulge in our sense mostly. So there is a huge difference i a Buddha eating meat, a monk eating meat and lay person eating meat.

Have any of us been to abbatoirs to witness animals being killed, these are sentient beings too. One day we also can take an animal rebirth too, do we want to go in that manner?

This is a funny but insightful video
Where on earth do people think meat comes from, some mythical meat tree?
http://blog.tsemtulku.com/tsem-tulku-ri ... video.html
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