the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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manas
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Re: Craving for meat? Watch this.

Post by manas »

chownah wrote: manasikara,
My wife and I take care of two dogs who live with us. I am pretty sure that they do not think of us as "ogres"......in fact quite the opposite.....I think that they think of my wife as that wonderful person who gives them food a couple of times a day EVERY DAY!!!!.....and they seem to like me too since they come to me for recognition and attention....but I don't know why they come to me since I don't feed them.....I guess that Ajahn Mun never met the dogs who live with us...but I must be wrong about this because who am I to disagree with Ajahn Mun?.....
chownah
I should have clarified that, Ajahn Mun was referring to the wild animals he met (and presumably heard 'talking' via his clairaudience) who were living in the forest and whose experience with most humans was bad (eg, hunters etc), hence their negative evaluation of humans. Obviously such a negative evaluation would not be held by dometicated pets being treated well by their owners. Anyway, I got this little snippet from his bio, but I'm beginning to think that quoting little bits out of books is hazardous, since if taken out of context, they can be misunderstood. :thinking:

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
Birgit
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Re: Craving for meat? Watch this.

Post by Birgit »

chownah wrote:Birgit,
It is too bad that the people who raise animals often treat them badly. I help my wife raise cows and we treat them very well. If more people who had compassion for animals did the raising of animals then the animals in the world would over all be better treated....unfortunately for animals many of the people who have compassion for animals become vegetarians and then do not want to raise animals....sad but true.....
chownah

manasikara,
My wife and I take care of two dogs who live with us. I am pretty sure that they do not think of us as "ogres"......in fact quite the opposite.....I think that they think of my wife as that wonderful person who gives them food a couple of times a day EVERY DAY!!!!.....and they seem to like me too since they come to me for recognition and attention....but I don't know why they come to me since I don't feed them.....I guess that Ajahn Mun never met the dogs who live with us...but I must be wrong about this because who am I to disagree with Ajahn Mun?.....
chownah

chownah
I think its good to raise animals, while treating them well, because they give you their love. But you may not kill these innocent creatures just for eating them and you may not separate a calf from his mother cow that you can drink her milk, while mother and child are desperately missing each other.
In the intensive mass animal farming and in the slaughterhouses the poor creatures are terribly tortured.
I cannot eat tortured animals and I also cannot eat animals who are raised with compassion. And I cannot drink milk of a cow who misses her calf after having had a severe birth.
So there is no alternative to becoming a vegan for me. The time I ate animals and drank milk had been much too long. I only can apologize for having not thought about. They are really our fellows.
Its a duty for us to prevent the governments from paying subsidies to the intensive mass animal farming.
I have a dog and like cows. Be kind to all of them :smile: :console:
Birgit
You, just as you are, can meet life on its own terms, taking delight in that which is enjoyable without clinging to it while also living with what is difficult and unpleasant without contracting into resistance to it. To dance with life is to meet life on its terms to be at ease, even enjoy the ever-changing interplay without clinging. Philip Moffit: Dancing with Life page 91/92
Birgit
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Birgit »

chownah
I thought of you and your wife raising your cows on a nice, little farm, on which they can graze on a wide greenland. I think you love your animals and do all the best for them as long as they live. And then, when the time comes, you have to give them to the butchery, you are very sad. But you have to do so, because its your job. You have to live from that job!
This job exists, because people still want to eat meat and to drink milk, although they needn´t.
You do a good job for the animals, because you give them the possibility to have a good life, before they have to die much to early. You prevent them from being tortured in the industrial mass animal farming, in which no human being is worrying about their fate and in which some human beings take delight in torturing them very cruelly.
I urgently wish that some day people don´t want to eat meat and to drink milk anymore. They will be more healthy then and the living animals will die of old age. There will not live many animals like cows, pigs or geese then, but there will be much less animal suffering.
Till then, in an unfortunately far future, do your good job and give them a happy (very short) life. They will be very grateful to you for your love.
Birgit :smile:
You, just as you are, can meet life on its own terms, taking delight in that which is enjoyable without clinging to it while also living with what is difficult and unpleasant without contracting into resistance to it. To dance with life is to meet life on its terms to be at ease, even enjoy the ever-changing interplay without clinging. Philip Moffit: Dancing with Life page 91/92
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

PeterB wrote:1) Not all cardiac disease is due to plaque. A proportion is caused by non-preventable factors. Many of them hereditary.
2) Cardiac arrest is not a bad way to go compared to some other possibilities.
3) Whatever the diet, mortality rates are currently running at 100%.
The greatest danger, the one that usually results in a blockage, is cholesterol being ingested by phagocytes in the lumen of veins and arteries. This results in a bulge "into" the interior of the artery or vein. When inflammation occurs, the bulge is subject to both obstruction as "sticky" factors build on the bulge, and as the resultant cap is eaten away by other phagocytes, and bacteria, which cause an unpredictable rupture, like a pustule releasing its contents when pinched by you on your face. This release blocks the artery, and depending on where it is causes damage down-stream. If the rupture is upstream from the heart, an infarct might result. If upstream from the brain, a stroke might result. Ether way a critical part of the body is going to die due to a lack of blood supply.

The fact that we are all going to die, re. your 100% guarantee of death, is not the question. Longevity and health is the question. Aside from getting hit by a bus, vegans lifestyle results in both a longer and healthier life by in large at least till age eighty:
Unexpected Findings

Vegetarians suffer fewer heart attacks than meat eaters.24-37 Interestingly, this benefit dissipates as vegetarians age. For instance, one study showed that vegetarians under the age of 65 were 45% less like to suffer a heart attack than were meat eaters. Once vegetarians reached the age of 80, however, their heart attack risk was only 8% lower than that of meat eaters.38

Longevity studies of vegetarians produce conflicting data. Some studies do not show that vegetarians live significantly longer.25,29 Two studies of people who consumed very little meat showed an average life-span increase of 3.6 years.39 A huge study of Seventh Day Adventists who ate little or no meat showed longevity increases of 7.28 years in men and 4.42 years in women.40 These data are confounded by the fact that Seventh Day Adventists follow healthy lifestyles free of tobacco and alcohol.

Studies suggest that the longevity benefits conferred by a vegetarian diet dissipate as humans enter their ninth decade.39 This implies that while vegetarian diets reduce disease risk, restricting one’s diet to only plant foods does not completely protect against the effects of aging.

resource: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/jan2006_awsi_01.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Ron-The-Elder wrote: Aside from getting hit by a bus, vegans lifestyle results in both a longer and healthier life by in large at least till age eighty:
Unexpected Findings

Vegetarians suffer fewer heart attacks than meat eaters.24-37 Interestingly, this benefit dissipates as vegetarians age. For instance, one study showed that vegetarians under the age of 65 were 45% less like to suffer a heart attack than were meat eaters. Once vegetarians reached the age of 80, however, their heart attack risk was only 8% lower than that of meat eaters.38

Longevity studies of vegetarians produce conflicting data. Some studies do not show that vegetarians live significantly longer.25,29 Two studies of people who consumed very little meat showed an average life-span increase of 3.6 years.39 A huge study of Seventh Day Adventists who ate little or no meat showed longevity increases of 7.28 years in men and 4.42 years in women.40 These data are confounded by the fact that Seventh Day Adventists follow healthy lifestyles free of tobacco and alcohol.

Studies suggest that the longevity benefits conferred by a vegetarian diet dissipate as humans enter their ninth decade.39 This implies that while vegetarian diets reduce disease risk, restricting one’s diet to only plant foods does not completely protect against the effects of aging.

resource: http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2006/jan2006_awsi_01.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It seems that you make a claim about the results of a VEGAN diet and then give information about the benefits of a VEGETARIAN diet. I know that a vegan diet is also a vegetarian diet but that does not mean that a study of a vegetarian diet can be applied to a vegan diet. To illustrate this let me point out that an all sugar diet would be a vegetarian diet but it is doubtful that it shares the benefits of the vegetarian diet which points to health benefits. Can you find a study specifically of a vegan diet showing similiar benefits?
chownah
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Hi, Chownah.

My experience with a vegan/vegetarian diet comes from Dr. Dean Ornish's program for atherosclerosis reversal diet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Ornish" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nutrition-health-articles.or ... erosis.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

label it what you want. It has been since 1998 that I went from having both main cardiac arteries blocked > 95% to surviving a disease that has a life expectancy of three years.

Ornish pushes vegan, but does allow use of fish periodically, which makes him a vegetarian.

Whatever he is, I recommend his change in lifestyle approach to those who wish to extend their lives and to live out the rest of their years in good health.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Ron-The-Elder,
I looked at the link for Dean Ornish and the word vegan is never used in the article. I do see that Ornish was way down on the list of co-authors for an article or book about the adequacy of a vegan diet but vegan is not mentioned in the article.
The article about reversing atherosclerosis does not contain the word "vegan" at all.
It doesn't seem like these articles do much to support the notion of long term health benefits for a vegan diet.
Also please note that usually the term "vegetarian" does not include the eating of fish....and that I would say that it is rare that you would find a person who calls themself a vegetarian and who also eats fish.
chownah
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Fede
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Fede »

I've met plenty of people who tell me "I'm vegetarian but I eat fish". Plenty. As if, because the creature is not a land mammal, has no legs and no discernible identifiable qualities, it exempts it from any carnal category.... :roll:

I even had a girl tell me she is a strict vegetarian - but she eats chicken....
What the heck was all that about? :jawdrop:

I actually stopped eating meat at the beginning of Lent, this year, on Medical grounds, but have rapidly adopted more of a personally-moral stance, during the intervening time....

I was watching a cookery programme - on Christmas day, of all times -fronted by a famous 'celeb-chef' called Gordon Ramsay. during this programme, he showed features by other chefs, preparing for their own celebrations.
one particular chef, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, was preparing a traditional medieval banquet, complete with goose stuffed with other progressively smaller birds. He's a back-to-basics chef - so he actively selected all his ingredients from livestock. As if that wasn't a bad enough thing to contemplate - he and a bunch of pals went squid-fishing.
i had recently seen a programme on squid and octopus, and what extraordinarily intelligent creatures they are; how they communicate, adapt and learn new information quickly, how colour-changes and textures of their skins are used for communication, mating, camouflage.... and here was this bunch of oiks hauling some truly spectacular and beautiful specimens out of the water, to eat them.

I wept, I actually wept.

I'm vegetarian.
And as a friend of mine clarifies, I don't eat anything that has a mother.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Fede wrote:I've met plenty of people who tell me "I'm vegetarian but I eat fish". Plenty. As if, because the creature is not a land mammal, has no legs and no discernible identifiable qualities, it exempts it from any carnal category.... :roll:
I've come across this a lot, and as you say it may just be that fish are more distant biologically than cows and sheep. But I guess it's a step in the right direction?

Spiny the non-edible hedgehog ;)
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

chownah wrote:Ron-The-Elder,
I looked at the link for Dean Ornish and the word vegan is never used in the article. I do see that Ornish was way down on the list of co-authors for an article or book about the adequacy of a vegan diet but vegan is not mentioned in the article.
The article about reversing atherosclerosis does not contain the word "vegan" at all.
It doesn't seem like these articles do much to support the notion of long term health benefits for a vegan diet.
Also please note that usually the term "vegetarian" does not include the eating of fish....and that I would say that it is rare that you would find a person who calls themself a vegetarian and who also eats fish.
chownah
Good friend Chownah, Yes. Eating fish is not vegan, nor is it vegetarian. To be vegan you must eat only vegetables, and abstain from all animal flesh and products. This includes eggs, cheese, and milk. I am not certain about things like bird's nests, because they include bird spit. Dung beetles eat digested animal dung, and I am not sure if eating dung is vegan either if the animal itself is a vegan. What I meant to say was that Ornish allows for eating fish in his otherwise vegan diet for atherosclerosis reversal, because fish oils and protein has been found to be beneficial for reversal of heart disease. Sorry for the confusion.

If your goal is to meet the requirements of The Five Precepts, then you can eat nothing, because you would be causing harm to a living being. Plants are living beings. No doubt. You would also be violating the precept of taking what was not freely given. So, vegans are not free of demerit while eating any more than an omnivore, or a carnivore. So, such piety is unwarranted.

:quote: Life must consume life in order to live. :quote:

I have heard the argument that eating fruit exclusively causes no harm, and is eating what the plant offers for consumption as a part of its strategy to reproduce, so long as you don't destroy the seed in the process of eating it. This means that you cannot eat nuts, because you would be interfering with the plants reproductive processes. Fruitatarian seems to be the best choice to me, so long as you can find the necessary nutrients to provide yourself with the essential amino acids and B-vitamins if complying with the precepts is your goal. Insects like bees and butterflies seem to have worked out a deal with plants to exchange nectar for transporting plant pollen. Perhaps in your next rebirth you can return as a bee or butterfly if you are truly concerned. :namaste:

Dearest Cooran: As for not eating anything that has a mother, may I remind you that we all live on Mother Earth, which supports all life.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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cooran
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cooran »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Dearest Cooran: As for not eating anything that has a mother, may I remind you that we all live on Mother Earth, which supports all life.
Hello Ron,

Could you link me to where I said that please? I'd like to read the context.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

cooran wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Dearest Cooran: As for not eating anything that has a mother, may I remind you that we all live on Mother Earth, which supports all life.
Hello Ron,

Could you link me to where I said that please? I'd like to read the context.

with metta
Chris
Yoiks! :jawdrop:

Sorry about that. My apologies. :embarassed:

The following quote came from "fede":
I wept, I actually wept.

I'm vegetarian.
And as a friend of mine clarifies, I don't eat anything that has a mother.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Fede
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Fede »

Ron - quit being a smarty-pants.

'Mother Earth' is figurative; Any creature on this planet, has a physical biological mother.

There is a clear distinction, and if common sense does not prevail, you might as well suggest you cannot possibly drink water that might have come from a natural spring that is, in turn, the "fruit of Mother Earth's loins".

By all means be strict.
But let's not get anal.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Fede wrote:Ron - quit being a smarty-pants.

'Mother Earth' is figurative; Any creature on this planet, has a physical biological mother.

There is a clear distinction, and if common sense does not prevail, you might as well suggest you cannot possibly drink water that might have come from a natural spring that is, in turn, the "fruit of Mother Earth's loins".

By all means be strict.
But let's not get anal.
Perhaps I was just using an "anal"-ogy. :tongue:

The reality of our universe is that energy and mass are related in accordance with E=MC^2. It has long been known that all of our constituent atoms and those of our planet were in fact manufactured through the processes we call stars. Therefore, in a very real sense, The Earth, our planet, as all the planets in our solar system, derived of the death of a previous local star, along with energy provided by our sun, reborn of the very same mother-star were in fact our actual mothers. Subsequently, as life arose on our planet, just so all life forms over vast time periods our components of life have been assembled, reacted in a grand biological cauldron of living, thriving, energetic forms, deteriorated, reabsorbed as nutrients, and seemingly endless etceteras in this grand interconnected web of existence we call life. "All life", not just animal life. :soap:

Therefore, and in conclusion, in a very real sense some of you was my mother in a previous rebirth, and some of me was your mother as well in a previous rebirth. This cannot be denied. So, stop scolding your mother and give me a hug. :heart: :hug: :heart: And, when you next look up in the sky, say with surety, "Hi, great sky mother!", and then bend over and kiss The Earth and say, "Hello, great Earth Mother!" This is greeting made daily by many peoples of native Americans. And as you already know, "The truth (dhamma) is the truth, no matter what the source."
AUTHOR: Family members state that the following prayer, as translated into English, was confirmed as being accurate by a woman who, at the time, was the hereditary Grandmother of the Turtle Clan of the Cornplanter Tribe of the Seneca Nation of the Haudenosaunee. (She has since passed.)

Over the centuries, at the time of the "nut festival," the Grandmother of the Turtle Clan would say the following prayer prior to everyone partaking in the feast that was part of the festival. The nut festival was held in late autumn, following the gathering of nuts and other food to store for winter.


GREETINGS TO THE NATURAL WORLD!

(Greet the People)

Today we have gathered and we see that the cycles of life continue. We have been given the duty to live in balance and harmony with each other and all living things. So now, we bring our minds together as one as we give greetings and thanks to each other as People.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Earth Mother)

We are all thankful to our Mother, the Earth, for she gives us all that we need for life. She supports our feet as we walk about upon her. It gives us joy that she continues to care for us as she has from the beginning of time. To our Mother, we send greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Waters)

We give thanks to all the Waters of the world for quenching our thirst and providing us with strength. Water is life. We know its power in many forms - waterfalls and rain, mists and streams, rivers and oceans. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the spirit of water.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Fish)

We turn our minds to all the Fish life in the water. They were instructed to cleanse and purify the water. They also give themselves to us as food. We are grateful that we can still find pure water. So, we turn now to the Fish and send our greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Plants)

Now we turn toward the vast fields of Plant life. As far as the eye can see, the Plants grow, working many wonders. They sustain many life forms. With our minds gathered together, we give thanks and look forward to seeing Plant life for many generations to come.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Food Plants)

With one mind, we turn to honor and thank all the Food Plants we harvest from the garden. Since the beginning of time, the grains, vegetables, beans and berries have helped the people survive. Many other living things draw strength from them too. We gather all the Plant Foods together as one and send them a greeting and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Medicine Herbs)

Now we turn to all the Medicine herbs of the world. From the beginning, they were instructed to take away sickness. They are always waiting and ready to heal us. We are happy there are still among us those special few who remember how to use these plants for healing. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to the Medicines and to the keepers of the Medicines.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Animals)

We gather our minds together to send greetings and thanks to all the Animal life in the world. They have many things to teach us as people. We see them near our homes and in the deep forests. We are glad they are still here and we hope that it will always be so.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Trees)

We now turn our thoughts to the Trees. The Earth has many families of Trees who have their own instructions and uses. Some provide us with shelter and shade, others with fruit, beauty and other useful things. Many peoples of the world use a Tree as a symbol of peace and strength. With one mind, we greet and thank the Tree life.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Birds)

We put our minds together as one and thank all the Birds who move and fly about over our heads. The Creator gave them beautiful songs. Each day they remind us to enjoy and appreciate life. The Eagle was chosen to be their leader. To all the Birds - from the smallest to the largest - we send our joyful greetings and thanks.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Four Winds)

We are all thankful to the powers we know as the Four Winds. We hear their voices in the moving air as they refresh us and purify the air we breathe. They help to bring the change of seasons. From the four directions they come, bringing us messages and giving us strength. With one mind, we send our greetings and thanks to the Four Winds.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Thunder Beings)

Now we turn to the west where our Grandfathers, the Thunder Beings, live. With lightning and thundering voices, they bring with them the water that renews life. We bring our minds together as one to send greetings and thanks to our Grandfathers, the Thunderers.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Sun)

We now send greetings and thanks to our eldest Brother, the Sun. Each day without fail he travels the sky from east to west, bringing the light of a new day. He is the source of all the fires of life. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Brother, the Sun.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to Grandmother Moon)

We put our minds together and give thanks to our oldest grandmother, the Moon, who lights the night-time sky. She is the leader of women all over the world, and she governs the movement of the ocean tides. By her changing face we measure time, and it is the Moon who watches over the arrival of children here on Earth. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to our Grandmother, the Moon.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Stars)

We give thanks to the Stars who are spread across the sky like jewelry. We see them in the night, helping the Moon to light the darkness and bringing dew to the gardens and growing things. When we travel at night, they guide us home. With our minds gathered together as one, we send greetings and thanks to all the Stars.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Enlightened Teachers)

We gather our minds to greet and thank the enlightened Teachers who have come to help throughout the ages. When we forget how to live in harmony, they remind us of the way we were instructed to live as people. With one mind, we send greetings and thanks to these caring Teachers.

Now our minds are one.

(Give thanks to the Creator)

Now we turn our thoughts to the Creator, or Great Spirit, and send greetings and thanks for the gifts of Creation. Everything we need to live a good life is here on this Mother Earth. For all the love that is still around us, we gather our minds together as one and send our choicest words of greetings and thanks to the Creator.

Now our minds are one.

(Closing Words)

We have now arrived at the place where we end our words. Of all the things we have named, it was not our intention to leave anything out. If something was forgotten, we leave it to each individual to send such greetings and thanks in their own way.

Now our minds are one.



Note: The words in bold in parenthesis are not meant to be spoken aloud. They are just page headings to help readers scan and interpret the article.

source: http://www.aaanativearts.com/article1011.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
P.S. I have been called "sweety-pants", but never "smarty-pants". Based on past performance, my pants aren't really that smart. You may be thinking of someone else. :thinking:

:focus:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Fungi: Plant neurobiological and vascular distribution network, and The Very First Internet:

http://www.ted.com/talks/paul_stamets_o ... world.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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