the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:16 pm

From The Vinaya II:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... o/bmc2.pdf

Anyone familiar with why Mangoes are excluded from a Bhikkhu's Diet? :shrug:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:45 pm

Edited
Ron-The-Elder wrote:From The Vinaya II:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... o/bmc2.pdf

Anyone familiar with why Mangoes are excluded from a Bhikkhu's Diet? :shrug:

if you continue to read the rules there you will see it was over turned in the next two legislation set out. the third of which was already put in place earlier in the vinaya also.
it was originally put in place because some Bhikkhus ate all the mangoes, and later when King Bimbisara wanted some there was none left and he commented that they were used well, but the Bhikkhus should know moderation that the Buddha taught. later to be over turned because it was not practical for every day living. and in the Mahavagga Mango Juice is allowable

BTW The Buddhist monastic code is a manual not the Vinaya.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby cooran » Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:21 am

Interesting:

Good Question, Good Answer Bhikkhu Shravasti Dhammika
Vegetarianism
-ooOoo-
Buddhists should be vegetarians, shouldn't they?

Not necessarily. The Buddha was not a vegetarian. He did not teach his disciples to be vegetarians and even today, there are many good Buddhists who are not vegetarians.

If you eat meat you are indirectly responsible the death of a creature. Isn't that breaking the first precept?

It is true that when you eat meat, you are indirectly and partially responsible for killing a creature but the same is true when you eat vegetables. The farmer has to spray his crop with insecticides and poisons so that the vegetables arrive on your dinner plates without holes in them. And once again, animals have been used to provide the leather for your belt or handbag, oil for the soap you use and a thousand other products as well. It is impossible to live without, in some way, being indirectly responsible for the death of some other beings. This is just another example of the First Noble Truth, ordinary existence is suffering and unsatisfactory. When you take the First Precept, you try to avoid being directly responsible for killing beings.

Mahayana Buddhists don't eat meat ...

That is not correct. Mahayana Buddhism in China laid great stress on being vegetarian but both the monks, laymen and women of the Mahayana tradition in Japan and Tibet usually eat meat.

But I still think that a Buddhist should be vegetarian.

If there was a man who was a very strict vegetarian but who was selfish, dishonest and mean, and another man who was not a vegetarian but who was thoughtful of others, honest, generous and kind, which of these two people would be the better Buddhist?
The person who was honest and kind.

Why?
Because such a person obviously has a good heart.

Exactly. One who eats meat can have a pure heart just as one who does not eat meat can have an impure heart. In the Buddha's teachings, the important thing is the quality of your heart, not the contents of your diet. Many Buddhists take great care never to eat meat buy they are not concerned about being selfish, dishonest, cruel or jealous. They change their diet which is easy to do, while neglecting to change their hearts, which is a difficult thing to do. So whether you are a vegetarian or not, remember that the purification of the mind is the most important thing in Buddhism.
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/go ... dqa-08.htm
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Re: Which diet are you?

Postby harveysmith27 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:14 am

My daily diet comes under Lacto-ovo vegetarian (or lacto only or ovo only.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:39 am

Cittasanto wrote:Edited
Ron-The-Elder wrote:From The Vinaya II:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... o/bmc2.pdf

Anyone familiar with why Mangoes are excluded from a Bhikkhu's Diet? :shrug:

if you continue to read the rules there you will see it was over turned in the next two legislation set out. the third of which was already put in place earlier in the vinaya also.
it was originally put in place because some Bhikkhus ate all the mangoes, and later when King Bimbisara wanted some there was none left and he commented that they were used well, but the Bhikkhus should know moderation that the Buddha taught. later to be over turned because it was not practical for every day living. and in the Mahavagga Mango Juice is allowable

BTW The Buddhist monastic code is a manual not the Vinaya.


Thank you for the clarifications, friend, Cittasanto. I did not read the explanation you provided, because I was tired and had to quit after reading over thirty pages online.

Much gratitude for your kind efforts. :hug:

Cooran, thank you as well for your efforts and quote: I am in total agreement that there is no moral high-ground when it comes to diet, but there are mindful choices, which can reduce the amount of suffering, which come form experience, skill and a "good heart" as you have said. :anjali:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Aug 16, 2012 3:49 pm

cooran wrote:Interesting:

Good Question, Good Answer Bhikkhu Shravasti Dhammika
Vegetarianism
-ooOoo-
Buddhists should be vegetarians, shouldn't they?


That is a good take on the issue by Ven. Dhammika. The buddhanet link is an older edition. Since then he has come out with an updated edition where he takes a slightly stronger stand in favor of vegetarianism:

http://www.goodquestiongoodanswer.net/content.php?CID=8

He concludes:

"Many people find that as they develop in the Dhamma that they have a natural tendency to move towards vegetarianism."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:07 pm

Do we eat to live or live to eat? :thinking:

How is a Bhikkhu moderate in eating? While reflecting rationally, he eats
food neither for the sake of entertainment, nor of infatuation, nor wishing
for bodily beauty, but exclusively for the support and maintenance of this
body, for ending discomfort, and for assisting this Noble life, considering:
Thus will I now end this old feeling, yet without arousing any new feeling!
Thus will I remain healthy, blameless & in comfort... Exactly as one treats
an open wound, only for the purpose healing it, or just as one greases an
axle only for the sake of easy transport of a heavy load, so does a Bhikkhu,
who is moderated in eating, while always reflecting rationally, eat food ...


source: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/II/Mo ... Eating.htm

Is your food disgusting?

The experience of loathsome disgust with all food, Bhikkhus & friends,
developed and frequently repeated, brings a high reward and blessing,
and has the Deathless Dimension as its basis & the very nearby goal.
Whoever, Bhikkhus & friends, often trains perceiving disgust with food,
his mind shrinks and turns away from voracious greed, he is neither
attracted, captivated or tempted, but feels only equanimity or disgust!
Just as, Bhikkhus & friends, a cock's feather or a piece of bowstring,
thrown into the fire, shrinks up, twists, rolls itself up, does not stretch
out again: just so in one who often entertains the experience of disgust
in all food, the mind shrinks back from greediness, turns away from it,
is repulsed by food, is not attracted; and equanimity or disgust arises!

Source: The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha. Anguttara Nikāya AN 7:46
http://What-Buddha-Said.net/Canon/Sutta ... erical.htm

The experience of Disgust in Food includes:
Seeing it brings the danger and tribulation of having a fragile and sore body.
Seeing what it becomes like when chewed and sunk: Like dogs vomit!
Seeing that getting it daily costs one much pain of seeking, work & cleaning.
Seeing that it is turned into secretions as bile, pus, blood, snot, slime & spit.
Seeing that it undigested stays as vomit in the foul receptacle of the stomach.
Seeing that it when digested is turned into diarrheic brown fluid in the intestines.
Seeing that it causes a lifelong excretion of stinking messy excrement & urine.
Seeing the side effects of obesity, diabetes, cardiac failure and hypertension.


source: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/IV/Food_Disgust.htm

Add to this: Seeing that attachment to the choice/selection/preference of its variety sets brother against brother and master against student causing anger and resentments to arise.... perhaps causing the greatest of all stench. :jawdrop:

Simile of The Son's Flesh.
The Blessed Buddha once said:
How, Bhikkhus & friends, is material food to be considered?
Imagine, two persons, husband & wife, with only few provisions, are wandering
through a desert with their only child, their beloved and dear little son.
However in the middle of the desert, their food runs out! Then this husband &
wife think: Let us kill our only child, our loved dear little son, prepare dried flesh,
& thus while eating this cross the rest of the desert. But, while eating this flesh,
they beat their breasts, weeping and lamenting: Where is our own little son now?
Where is our only child? What do you think, Bhikkhus & friends: Do these two
people eat their food for amusement, or for pleasure, or to become beautiful?
No, Venerable Sir.
Do they eat this foul food, their only son's flesh only to escape the desert?
Indeed so, Venerable Sir.
Even and Exactly so, Bhikkhus & friends, should one regard all material food!
Once one has fully understood material food, one has also understood all and
any kind of greed for all five sense objects. Once one has fully understood
the greed for the 5 sense objects, then there exists no more any mental chain,
bound by which the Noble Disciple could ever return again to this world...!


source: http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/IV/Th ... Flesch.htm

With thanks to Bhikkhu Samahita of Ceylon/Sri Lanka and gratitude for his medical recovery.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby yawares » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:11 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:[b]Do we eat to live or live to eat? :thinking: [/b]

Dear Ron,
I truly love your post:

The experience of Disgust in Food includes:
Seeing it brings the danger and tribulation of having a fragile and sore body.
Seeing what it becomes like when chewed and sunk: Like dogs vomit!
Seeing that getting it daily costs one much pain of seeking, work & cleaning.
Seeing that it is turned into secretions as bile, pus, blood, snot, slime & spit.
Seeing that it undigested stays as vomit in the foul receptacle of the stomach.
Seeing that it when digested is turned into diarrheic brown fluid in the intestines.
Seeing that it causes a lifelong excretion of stinking messy excrement & urine.
Seeing the side effects of obesity, diabetes, cardiac failure and hypertension.

-----------
Simile of The Son's Flesh.
The Blessed Buddha once said:
How, Bhikkhus & friends, is material food to be considered?
Imagine, two persons, husband & wife, with only few provisions, are wandering
through a desert with their only child, their beloved and dear little son.
However in the middle of the desert, their food runs out! Then this husband &
wife think: Let us kill our only child, our loved dear little son, prepare dried flesh,
& thus while eating this cross the rest of the desert. But, while eating this flesh,
they beat their breasts, weeping and lamenting: Where is our own little son now?
Where is our only child? What do you think, Bhikkhus & friends: Do these two
people eat their food for amusement, or for pleasure, or to become beautiful?
No, Venerable Sir.
Do they eat this foul food, their only son's flesh only to escape the desert?
Indeed so, Venerable Sir.
Even and Exactly so, Bhikkhus & friends, should one regard all material food!
Once one has fully understood material food, one has also understood all and
any kind of greed for all five sense objects. Once one has fully understood
the greed for the 5 sense objects, then there exists no more any mental chain,
bound by which the Noble Disciple could ever return again to this world...!


*******
I might not have good appetite today...but love love your post!!
yawares :anjali:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:26 pm

yawares: "Dear Ron,
I truly love your post:"


All credit to the work of Bhikkhu Samahita @"What the Blessed Buddha Said": http://what-buddha-said.net/
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby DAWN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:03 pm

I'am vegan since 2011, eat one meal a day, and I fealling great ! :namaste:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:44 pm

DAWN wrote:I'am vegan since 2011, eat one meal a day, and I fealling great ! :namaste:

Hi, Dawn. Would you mind explaining what you eat (in detail) every day for your one meal.
Thank you, I am very curious, because I am trying to move to one meal a day, vegan with a supplement of egg-whites or egg beaters. Then, if successful with that I will eliminate the egg products.

For example yesterday I had no breakfast or lunch and made noodles with mushrooms and, mushroom gravy, which is primarily a corn starch base.

This morning I made egg beaters with brown and wild rice, black beans, and spinach in garlic, salt, pepper,Hoisin, and olive oil sauce.

I am supplementing for vitamin B and D with a Centrum Multi-vitamin for men.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:06 pm

Hi Ron, Dawn, all,

I don't think you need a supplement for vitamin B.

Good sources for B vitamins include kombucha, whole grains, potatoes, bananas, lentils, chili peppers, tempeh, beans, nutritional yeast, brewer's yeast, and molasses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_vitamins ... in_sources


And vitamin D can come from alfalfa, the sun, and mushrooms.

B12 is the only nutrient that a vegan cannot get easily. It can be obtained from the vegan sources of nutritional yeast or shitake mushrooms and I think from miso too and then of course from animal products (not vegan, but still vegetarian).

I am a "Paris-vegan" where I eat vegan at home and lacto-ovo at restaurants or when someone serves me at some social function. So I get plenty of B, D, B12 during those times and the amounts needed are small enough that I don't need any supplements.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby marc108 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:17 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:So I get plenty of B, D, B12 during those times and the amounts needed are small enough that I don't need any supplements.


Dr Snyder,

please be aware that plant based vitamin D is D2, and less active in the body than the D3 you produce through sun exposure. the b12 in plant foods is called a 'false cobalamin'... it is a structural b12 analog, with little to no actual activity in the human body. b12 from nutritional yeast is usually added synthetic, like in a multivitamin, and should be fine. to make sure, it's wise that during our checkups, we have our doctors check for: serum vitamin D, B12, homocysteine & methylmalonic acid.

it would be wise for vegans, especially those eating one meal a day, to drink a glass of fortified soymilk a few times per week.
Last edited by marc108 on Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby PeDr0 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:18 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Hi Ron, Dawn, all,


B12 is the only nutrient that a vegan cannot get easily. It can be obtained from the vegan sources of nutritional yeast or shitake mushrooms and I think from miso too and then of course from animal products (not vegan, but still vegetarian).



What about Marmite or Vegimite.. hardly difficuilt really :)
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby DAWN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:08 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
DAWN wrote:I'am vegan since 2011, eat one meal a day, and I fealling great ! :namaste:

Hi, Dawn. Would you mind explaining what you eat (in detail) every day for your one meal.
Thank you, I am very curious, because I am trying to move to one meal a day, vegan with a supplement of egg-whites or egg beaters. Then, if successful with that I will eliminate the egg products.

For example yesterday I had no breakfast or lunch and made noodles with mushrooms and, mushroom gravy, which is primarily a corn starch base.

This morning I made egg beaters with brown and wild rice, black beans, and spinach in garlic, salt, pepper,Hoisin, and olive oil sauce.

I am supplementing for vitamin B and D with a Centrum Multi-vitamin for men.


One meal a day because I will ordain, and so i prepare my body and mind to one meal a day standart, but also i think that human being population eat a lot, eating a lot its equal to destroi our planet a little bit more avery meal, also he dont need 3 meal to survive, there are 800 000 000 peoples who suffering beacause they dont have enought food to eat, i can eat 3 meal when i know that at this very moment childrens are diying because they dont eat anithing since several days of weeks, and why they dont have enought food? Because i love my car, because i want have one comfortable life... I'am not agree with that, so i eat vegan one meal a day, and i'am very happy. May be it's because i'am young, but my body is happy too, without any vitamines or any medicaments, i dont have any medicament in my house. Human being is an monkey, monkey lives on the trees, they eat fruit, and they dont have vitamines, so logicaly, if i will eat vegan without vitamines, my body will have all what he needs...
Anywere, if my body not agree, he have not a choise, he have to deal with :hug:

marc108:
Chocolate soymilk or vanilla soymilk is great !! :namaste:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:18 pm

DAWN wrote:Chocolate soymilk or vanilla soymilk is great !! :namaste:

I prefer rice milk!
but currently eating my mothers leftovers.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby DAWN » Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:35 pm

Cittasanto wrote:
DAWN wrote:Chocolate soymilk or vanilla soymilk is great !! :namaste:

I prefer rice milk!
but currently eating my mothers leftovers.


Indeed, i think that the reason of my preference to 'chocolate/vanillia soymilk' , is not 'soymilk', but 'chocolate/vanillia' :tongue: It's like a food name in thai restorants, whats determinate the name is not the principal ingredients, but sauce... ;)

I will try some chocolate ricemilk.. Thank you !
:namaste:
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:48 pm

marc108 wrote:it would be wise for vegans, especially those eating one meal a day, to drink a glass of fortified soymilk a few times per week.


Thanks for the info.

PeDr0 wrote:What about Marmite or Vegimite.. hardly difficuilt really :)


Those foods are not that common here in the U.S., but nutritional yeast, brewer's yeast, tofu, miso, and soy milk are easy to find.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:30 pm

DAWN wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
DAWN wrote:Chocolate soymilk or vanilla soymilk is great !! :namaste:

I prefer rice milk!
but currently eating my mothers leftovers.


Indeed, i think that the reason of my preference to 'chocolate/vanillia soymilk' , is not 'soymilk', but 'chocolate/vanillia' :tongue: It's like a food name in thai restorants, whats determinate the name is not the principal ingredients, but sauce... ;)

I will try some chocolate ricemilk.. Thank you !
:namaste:

try plain, it is nice enough on its own
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Which diet are you?

Postby ananyaa » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:51 pm

I am currently a Lacto Ovo vegetarian. Can give up eggs, no worries there. Have also almost stopped drinking milk or eating foods rich in milk (most Indian sweets). I love a bit of milk in my tea / coffee although, and India does not have many dairy substitutes (or atleast not that I have found in Mumbai). If one gives me a good dairy whitener that is vegan, I am more than happy to let go of milk too :)
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