the great vegetarian debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 3829
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:56 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?


Growing childen can eat vegetarian diets and be healthy. I know Jain and Hindu families as well as westerners who have never eaten meat all their lives and they all seem pretty healthy.

.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:57 pm

Being vegetarian won't get you enlightened and I never met one who thinks that way but heard that are a few who think like that.


Couldn't agree more. Also, all economic and evolutionary arguments aside, let's not forget that the Buddha refused to make vegetarianism a rule.



Why was that we must ask?
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:59 pm

Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?


Growing childen can eat vegetarian diets and be healthy. I know Jain and Hindu families as well as westerners who have never eaten meat all their lives and they all seem pretty healthy.

.



I suppose it could be done if worked out properly in terms of nutrition :) once again though the financial aspect does come into play


Personally, if I ever had children (not very likely), I would give them meat to eat.
Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 3829
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:02 pm

clw_uk wrote:
... And 35% of me is related to daffodils I hear ;


Lol ! I just love the colour and scent of daffodils !


:twothumbsup:

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:04 pm

Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
... And 35% of me is related to daffodils I hear ;


Lol ! I just love the colour and scent of daffodils !


:twothumbsup:



:jumping:


Interestingly, it would mean that meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans alike are all eating their relatives :p :jawdrop:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:06 pm

Let it be also clearly stated that the Buddha never refused to encourage vegetarianism, its pretty clear with all those rules etc, he wanted it to be harder for us to eat meat, not easier......
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:11 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Let it be also clearly stated that the Buddha never refused to encourage vegetarianism, its pretty clear with all those rules etc, he wanted it to be harder for us to eat meat, not easier......



But yet he ate meat and never enforced it
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4532
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:29 pm

:soap:

There may be bigger fish to fry: with roughly 70% of usable water locked up in agriculture, and human population growth being what it is, there are huge problems with food security on the horizon for all. There's only so much arable land, there's only so much water, and a world-spanning farm would be a biome holocaust of horrific consequence.

To extend a metaphor, I think this whole discussion is addressing very important trees, but there's a forest in danger. I want to take this opportunity to suggest that for anyone trying to eat food ethically, long-term food security issues deserve to be front and center whether or not animal protein is being consumed.

Consider the water. Consider what a world of just farmland looks like. Consider what nine billion people are going to eat in the year 2050. And so forth.

:focus:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:30 pm

There are an extremely low number of documented places were the Buddha ate meat, he was for all intensive purposes a vegetarian most of the time it would seem. Theres something for you to sink your claws into..........
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:36 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:There are an extremely low number of documented places were the Buddha ate meat, he was for all intensive purposes a vegetarian most of the time it would seem. Theres something for you to sink your claws into..........




But yet he ate meat and never enforced it...


Theres something for you to sink your claws into




Rarrr :twisted:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:39 pm

daverupa wrote::soap:

There may be bigger fish to fry: with roughly 70% of usable water locked up in agriculture, and human population growth being what it is, there are huge problems with food security on the horizon for all. There's only so much arable land, there's only so much water, and a world-spanning farm would be a biome holocaust of horrific consequence.

To extend a metaphor, I think this whole discussion is addressing very important trees, but there's a forest in danger. I want to take this opportunity to suggest that for anyone trying to eat food ethically, long-term food security issues deserve to be front and center whether or not animal protein is being consumed.

Consider the water. Consider what a world of just farmland looks like. Consider what nine billion people are going to eat in the year 2050. And so forth.

:focus:



The main problem there is human population, it's exploded in the last century or so
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:04 pm

clw_uk wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:You haven't even tried, have you, its very easy to get all your nutrients from a vegetarian diet, vegan is a bit harder, its also very hard to get no negative effects on your health from eating lots of meat.



That's great if you can afford it, however some families can only afford meat to feed their children.




It really depends on where the family lives. People have done experiments where they can be fully vegan on nothing but food stamps. Something like $30 a week. Things like rice and beans are cheap! Food Stamp Recipients Can Eat Vegan For $33 a Week Of course that all depends on what kind of markets the people have access to.

Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?


It's healthy to not give a child meat just as long as you actually give them a balanced veg*an diet. According to The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (formerly the American Dietetic Association) the world's largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. "Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."

:namaste:

User avatar
seeker242
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:13 pm

daverupa wrote::soap:

There may be bigger fish to fry: with roughly 70% of usable water locked up in agriculture, and human population growth being what it is, there are huge problems with food security on the horizon for all. There's only so much arable land, there's only so much water, and a world-spanning farm would be a biome holocaust of horrific consequence.

To extend a metaphor, I think this whole discussion is addressing very important trees, but there's a forest in danger. I want to take this opportunity to suggest that for anyone trying to eat food ethically, long-term food security issues deserve to be front and center whether or not animal protein is being consumed.

Consider the water. Consider what a world of just farmland looks like. Consider what nine billion people are going to eat in the year 2050. And so forth.

:focus:


No need to go "back to topic"! This is right on topic! :smile: Water scarcity and agriculture is a big issue according to leading water scientists. They propose that water scarcity necessitates near vegetarian diet in the coming future.

By 2050 there will not be enough water in the world to continue the global trends of a Western-style, high animal protein diet. Rather, a primarily vegetarian diet is necessary to address growing water insecurity, according to a report released to coincide with the 2012 World Water Week in Stockholm from August 26-31.

In part of the report, Food Security: Overcoming Water Scarcity Realities, Malin Falkenmark, Senior Scientific Advisor to the Stockholm International Water Institute (SIWI), writes that almost half the world population will be living in chronic water shortage, and that sustainable water consumption means eating a diet with no more than 5% of calories coming from animal protein: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/2 ... 36273.html

User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
Posts: 16351
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: Land of the sleeping gods
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:44 pm

Hi Craig,
clw_uk wrote:Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?


That all depends.
If the meat is the only form of protein in the child's diet and the meat is not replaced by a plant-based protein source - then no.
If the meat has been replaced with vegetable forms of protein - then the diet is going to be far healthier.

Its a mistake to believe that meat offers the best source of protein - it doesn't. As Aloka mentioned above - there have been long traditions of vegetarian and vegan cuisine throughout the world and those peoples were not deficient. There is also a lot of misinformation about the amount of protein we need. Most people in the West eat an over-abundance of protein and that includes vegans and (ovo-lacto) vegetarians.
In fact, putting a "growing" child on a wholefoods plant-based diet ensures the child has reduced risk of the vast majority of chronic illnesses and diseases including cardio-vascular disease, many forms of cancer, and others. See here, here and here.

I have been on a wholefoods plant-based (vegan) diet for around five weeks now and it has been one of the best things I have done. Ethically, it is consistent with Buddhist morality, it is environmentally more sustainable, but the kicker for me is that it is one of the best things I can do for my own mental and physical health. And the body of peer-reviewed scientific evidence that supports the healthful properties of a wholefoods plant-based diet is huge and extremely convincing.
kind regards,

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia
e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com

User avatar
BubbaBuddhist
Posts: 640
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:55 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:27 pm

Image

BB
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:53 pm

clw_uk wrote:Also does anyone know if it's healthy to take meat out of a growing child's diet?


This book has two authors, both registered dieticians who regularly review research literature and who regularly post about what they read on their nutrition blogs. The book is written in plain English and covers nutrition concerns for all phases of life:

Image
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:35 pm

Ethically, it is consistent with Buddhist morality



I agree but so is eating meat :)
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

Jhana4
Posts: 1309
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:20 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: U.S.A., Northeast

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Jhana4 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:42 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Ethically, it is consistent with Buddhist morality



I agree but so is eating meat :)


From
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."


Customers make a business possible.

Interesting that the Buddha classed meat production with such fine endeavors as arms dealing, the slave traide, the drug trade and making poison.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.

User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3579
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:44 pm

Interesting that the Buddha classed meat production with such fine endeavors as arms dealing, the slave traide, the drug trade and making poison.



Yet he ate meat and didn't enforce a rule for vegetarianism. In fact the only time he is asked to do so, he refuses.


The demand for meat won't go away, and a lot of meat will end up in the bin, so there is no harm in buying it
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1006
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:49 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Ethically, it is consistent with Buddhist morality



I agree but so is eating meat :)


So now you're speaking for all Buddhists, and telling us what Buddhist morality is, AND it involves the killing of animals, you're just too much claw!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John


Return to “Open Dhamma”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LastLegend and 8 guests