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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:31 pm
by Jhana4
Anyone read this book?




Image

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:58 pm
by Jhana4
Alex123 wrote: Carnivores eat other animals. Even if humans don't eat chicken, or rabbit, the fox or some other carnivore will. The big predator fish can eat smaller fish... And unlike humans, they do not have humane way of killing their prey.
Humans don't kill humanely. Google on "factory farms" and then google on kosher or halal slaughtering methods. Yes, animals kill other animals. They don't have a choice. Human beings have a choice. Oddly enough that capacity is why Buddhism thinks being born human is so special, it gives us the ability to follow the dhamma.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:09 pm
by Jhana4
dagon wrote: Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians - some of the kindest are vegetarians - i guess that it is what is going on in the mind and how the self is identified that makes the difference, not the menu choices that are made.

metta
paul
I don't mean any disrespect Paul. I think the passage you quoted is an argument ad hominem with the underlying motive to discredit vegetarians to make it easier to dismiss them rather than having to think about what they have to say. Isn't that attachment to views, something which Buddhism warns people about?

As to some other implied points, most vegetarians are vegetarians because they are very aware that animals have the capacity to suffer, they want to live like we do and they want to avoid pain like we do. People have a hard time being agreeable when something horrible is in the process of happening. A creature being that suffers like we do, being put into pain and killed.

If any person had that view, they would feel very strongly and would say something about at least avoiding using animal products.

That is the point were I interjected my comment, a subtle making fun of monks seeking out vegetarian food. Someone trying to sustain themselves without hurting another creature like themselves. It is my belief that is the result of many people not being able to handle the fact they could unknowingly be doing something horrible so they discredit the people who provoke those thoughts.

The dhamma is about seeing things as they are, especially unpleasant things we intentionally avoid looking at like death, aging, dukkha. The value in looking at things it would be easier to avoid seeing is to make things better.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:31 pm
by lyndon taylor
I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:56 pm
by BubbaBuddhist
To all,
I was the moderator of the vegetarian forum of e-sangha for almost four years, and it was easily the bitterestly-contested area on that entire website. We moderators had to take more disciplinary actions, suspend more members ,and delete more posts than on any other section, and from both omnis and veggies. The omnis had their moments, yes, but the veggies quite often called omnis 'baby-killers" and "monsters," among other things. Hell, vegans sent me vitriolic hate-mail because I was 'only' a vegetarian and that wasn't good enough, therefore I had no right to be the moderator. It was unbelievable. Well, almost. I've come to recognize people say things on the internet they would never dare say face-to-face. Accountability has gone out the window.

My take on the whole thing is we have to be as mindful of what comes out of our mouths as what we put in it.

Munching on some celery and hummus,

BB

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:06 pm
by dagon
Jhana4 wrote:
dagon wrote: Some of the aggressive and attached people i know are vegetarians - some of the kindest are vegetarians - i guess that it is what is going on in the mind and how the self is identified that makes the difference, not the menu choices that are made.

metta
paul
I don't mean any disrespect Paul. I think the passage you quoted is an argument ad hominem with the underlying motive to discredit vegetarians to make it easier to dismiss them rather than having to think about what they have to say. Isn't that attachment to views, something which Buddhism warns people about?

As to some other implied points, most vegetarians are vegetarians because they are very aware that animals have the capacity to suffer, they want to live like we do and they want to avoid pain like we do. People have a hard time being agreeable when something horrible is in the process of happening. A creature being that suffers like we do, being put into pain and killed.

If any person had that view, they would feel very strongly and would say something about at least avoiding using animal products.

That is the point were I interjected my comment, a subtle making fun of monks seeking out vegetarian food. Someone trying to sustain themselves without hurting another creature like themselves. It is my belief that is the result of many people not being able to handle the fact they could unknowingly be doing something horrible so they discredit the people who provoke those thoughts.

The dhamma is about seeing things as they are, especially unpleasant things we intentionally avoid looking at like death, aging, dukkha. The value in looking at things it would be easier to avoid seeing is to make things better.
Hi Jhana

I read the whole of that book and my assessment of what was being said was VERY different to yours. I should read it again because i can cleanly see that you have more wisdom than me - even about my dietary preferences.

You are so right about me wishing to avoid seeing things as they are - especially sickness, suffering and old age.

I spent to day looking after old, sick dying people in a nursing home - how did you spend you day?

metta
paul

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:32 pm
by Jhana4
My view of things is that I wrote a reply to a post trying to discredit what I consider to be a noble endeavor by stereotyping and dismissing the people who attempt it. My reply consisted of what I honestly think. I got back sarcasm. I know little about you beyond your screen name and a few facts. I will leave things at wishing you to have a happy Tuesday.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:52 pm
by Alex123
lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........

What about wolves, foxes and other animals like that? They cut the prey to pieces making "look at factory farms!" seem ridiculous. As much as I am against mistreatment of animals and seen few clips of "factory farms", the real life is as bad if not worse than that.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:08 pm
by DNS
It doesn't matter what animals do. They are in the 'woeful states' and not something we need to emulate. The vegetarian for religious reasons (whatever religion that might be; HIndu, Jain, some Buddhists) would argue that humans have attained to a higher level than animals and are held to a higher standard.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:21 pm
by lyndon taylor
Alex123 wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........

What about wolves, foxes and other animals like that? They cut the prey to pieces making "look at factory farms!" seem ridiculous. As much as I am against mistreatment of animals and seen few clips of "factory farms", the real life is as bad if not worse than that.

you're not eating wolves and foxes, are you????

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:24 pm
by lyndon taylor
David N. Snyder wrote:It doesn't matter what animals do. They are in the 'woeful states' and not something we need to emulate. The vegetarian for religious reasons (whatever religion that might be; HIndu, Jain, some Buddhists) would argue that humans have attained to a higher level than animals and are held to a higher standard.

It would seem as regards what we will eat, most of us haven't acheived a higher state than a cow!!!!!!!

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:32 pm
by Ceisiwr
lyndon taylor wrote:I went to the cow pasture; no cows eating animals!!! Then I went to the pig farm; no pigs eating animals!!!! Then the sheep pasture; no sheep eating animals! And finally the chicken coop; no chickens eating animals! maybe we should learn something from the animals........

As much as we try to get away from it, humans are built to hunt and kill as well as eat vegetables. That is why we have forward facing eyes and canine teeth as well as molars.

Now vegetarianism is ideal, however it's not practical for everyone. Also let's not forget they vegetarianism is not a pre-requisit for enlightenment.

Also the Buddha ate meat as we all know. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.


Life feeds off life. That's one of the factors that drives evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:46 pm
by Aloka
clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves for customers to buy. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because its already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My non-Buddhist father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were treated and then killed and he was so horrified he couldn't eat chicken again . Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eating Buddhist, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and was so upset at what he saw that he never ate it again.


.

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:50 pm
by Ceisiwr
Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were killed and was so horrified he couldn't eat them again and he wasn't even a vegetarian. Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eater, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and never ate it again.


.

But the demand will always be there. You won't turn everyone vegetarian, that's too idealistic.


The best hope for animals is the lab grown meat that's being developed

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:55 pm
by Aloka
clw_uk wrote:
Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:. Now in karmic terms, killing is unwholesome however I don't see a problem with buying meat from the supermarkets. It's going to be there anyway and it will either be bought by someone else or just thrown away.

Life feeds of life, that's also one of the factors that drove evolution. Sadly that's the way it is.
The meat in supermarkets is there because of the demand for meat. If people didn't want to buy and eat meat then animals wouldn't be bred and killed and pieces of them wouldn't be there on the meat shelves. Its a cop-out to say "Oh well I buy it because already there" because you are contributing to that demand.

My father ate chicken and then he saw what actually happened to chickens and how they were killed and was so horrified he couldn't eat them again and he wasn't even a vegetarian. Similarly someone else I know who was a meat eater, went to a slaugherhouse for the meat trade and never ate it again.


.

But the demand will always be there. You won't turn everyone vegetarian, that's too idealistic.


The best hope for animals is the lab grown meat that's being developed

I'm not trying to turn everyone vegetarian, Craig, I'm just putting forward some points in a debate.


:)