the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:58 am

Do you think people are talking about you behind your back, somehow everything I say gets interpreted as directly reflecting on you, for your information I make my comments refering to anyone reading this thread, I'm commenting on the topic and the posts that have been made NOT JUST BY YOU, but by everyone, some of it refers to your post some of it doesn't, if something I say doesn't apply to you don't take it personally, because obviously it doesn't apply. OK???
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:03 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Do you think people are talking about you behind your back, somehow everything I say gets interpreted as directly reflecting on you, for your information I make my comments refering to anyone reading this thread, I'm commenting on the topic and the posts that have been made NOT JUST BY YOU, but by everyone, some of it refers to your post some of it doesn't, if something I say doesn't apply to you don't take it personally, because obviously it doesn't apply. OK???

Blocked, you are not worth the time
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:13 am

I guess the Buddha got some bad kamma because he ate meat.....likewise the monks......perhaps the Buddha said it was ok for monks to eat meat because he intended them to have some bad kamma......I don't know......just guessing.......
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:16 am

chownah wrote:I guess the Buddha got some bad kamma because he ate meat.....likewise the monks......perhaps the Buddha said it was ok for monks to eat meat because he intended them to have some bad kamma......I don't know......just guessing.......
chownah


http://www.softerviews.org/AIM/amagandha.html
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:10 am

Cittasanto your link has some kind of bug and my computer is telling me it is not safe to open, might want to look into that....

Well I found an excellent, more open minded than me, discourse on Vegetarianism and Buddhism from a Bhikkhu Sujato, who I don't know anything about but my friend assures me is a forest tradition Therevada monk.It covers a wide range of issues, excellent comments on Devadattu, that the controversy was not Devadattus reforms were wrong but that he wished to make them obligatory for everyone, It sticks to the intention is kamma, so meat eating is not bad kamma (which I disagree with) but brings up the notion I was touching on, that Truth (Dhamma) is much larger than what was covered in the scriptures which is only a partial revelation of Truth. It also deals at length with how different and much worse the animal raising practices are today than in the Buddha's time, As Seeker242 brought up above.

What you might find inspiring is that the discourse supports a vegetarian outlook without the fingerpointing and name calling I have been prone to, so as for now, as I agree with 95% of this link I'll let Bhikkhu Sujato speak instead of me!!

http://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/ ... xtra-cute/
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:38 am

I prefer the teachings of the Buddha to those of Bhikkhu Sugato:

The correct link to the Āmagandha Sutta and my notes from the Commentary are found on my website as well as on my website mirror.

There can be no dialogue with someone who is ruled by emotions, and not by wisdom.

The vegetarian hermits gave up their wrong views after listening to the Buddha. They were able to reason rationally. Perhaps they continued to eat vegetarian food after ordination, as permitted by the Buddha in his reply to Devadatta: “Let those who wish, eat meat and fish; let those who wish, abstain from meat and fish.”

BTW: If you think that your decisions are always rational, check out this Horizon Documentary. It's mostly just prejudice and habit, or kamma if you prefer.
Last edited by Bhikkhu Pesala on Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby rowboat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:52 am

lyndon taylor: Cittasanto your link has some kind of bug and my computer is telling me it is not safe to open, might want to look into that...


I had the same warnings, Lyndon. If not for the warning I would have landed on the infected link. Cittasanto, it's best to avoid linking to/through Facebook when there are many excellent sources available that do not require registration. Incidentally the infected link leads to the oft-quoted Amagandha Sutta.

Lyndon, CIttasanto has stated in a recent previous post that he has now "blocked" you, which only means that, for him only, your posts from now on will appear collapsed on the page and require one click in order to read.

Edit: It seems the original page leads to Ven. Pesala's website and it is only the process of landing there via Facebook that is potentially harmful.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:07 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I prefer the teachings of the Buddha to those of Bhikkhu Sugato:

The correct link to the Āmagandha Sutta and my notes from the Commentary are found on my website as well as on my website mirror.

There can be no dialogue with someone who is ruled by emotions, and not by wisdom.

The vegetarian hermits gave up their wrong views after listening to the Buddha. They were able to reason rationally. Perhaps they continued to eat vegetarian food after ordination, as permitted by the Buddha in his reply to Devadatta: “Let those who wish, eat meat and fish; let those who wish, abstain from meat and fish.”


Seeing as the 2500 year old teachings of the Buddha have no relevant teachings on the horrible practices of modern factory farming, which in no way existed in his time, I welcome Ven. Sujato's comments on the topic, a very meaningful alternative to the largely pro meat eating arguments presented on your website, Bhikkhu Pesala.

Also it is my understanding that the Buddha Kassapa mentioned in the Amaghanda sutta is not the historical Gautama Buddha, but a very mythical telling of the life of a previous Buddha in another kalpa, or age. Seriously on a does this sound like the actual words of the Buddha scale of 1-10 I'd rate this a 1.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:19 am

rowboat wrote:
lyndon taylor: Cittasanto your link has some kind of bug and my computer is telling me it is not safe to open, might want to look into that...


I had the same warnings, Lyndon. If not for the warning I would have landed on the infected link. Cittasanto, it's best to avoid linking to/through Facebook when there are many excellent sources available that do not require registration. Incidentally the infected link leads to the oft-quoted Amagandha Sutta.

Lyndon, CIttasanto has stated in a recent previous post that he has now "blocked" you, which only means that, for him only, your posts from now on will appear collapsed on the page and require one click in order to read.

Edit: It seems the original page leads to Ven. Pesala's website and it is only the process of landing there via Facebook that is potentially harmful.


Actually Cittasantos dangerous link doesn't lead to Bhikkhu Pesalas website, its a link posted on facebook on the Five Precept Observance Club of a different translation of the same that I clicked on against better judgement wishing to read what it said, what I discovered is the most fanciful, not Buddhist sutta sounding "sutta" I have read.

The sutta to me portrays this buddha, not the historical Buddha a some sort of vehement pro meat eating fanatic, nothing could be further from the case with reference the true Buddha, Gautama. IMHO

One suspicious thing, the Buddha Kassapa rails against many ascetic practices including the shaving of the head????? Then in the commentary we are led to believe that this is Gautama Buddha not Kassapa and that they have a conversation together even though they lived at least 5000years apart from each other.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby rowboat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:30 am

Lyndon Taylor: Actually it doesn't lead to Bhikkhu Pesalas website, its a link posted on facebook on the Five precept Group of a different translation of the same that I clicked on against better judgement


I will take your word for it as I refuse to have anything to do with Facebook.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:35 am

I was invited to join the FIve Precept Observance Club on facebook by a moderator here, if you're at all worried about privacy or anonymity facebook is not the place for you, I agree.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:51 am

rowboat wrote:I will take your word for it as I refuse to have anything to do with Facebook.
Me too, neither, but it's not a dangerous link. That is a standard warning for visiting any offsite link. My site is not dangerous, except for those who are attached to their views and opinions. :stirthepot:

Odd that the five precepts club should be posting a link to the PDF on my site, although it says on every page of my site:
If you post an extract on a forum, post a link to the appropriate page. Please do not link directly to PDF, MP3, or ZIP files.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:55 am

Bhikkhu Pesala, nothing wrong with your link, the link on facebook was to an entirely different site, a pdf file which was deemed suspicious and had flowers all around the text, unless cittasanto went and changed that link to a link to your site, seriously please forgive me if anyone thought I was infering your link to be any risk. It is not.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby rowboat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:08 am

lyndon taylor wrote:I was invited to join the FIve Precept Observance Club on facebook by a moderator here, if you're at all worried about privacy or anonymity facebook is not the place for you, I agree.


Agreed, although I didn't say why I avoid Facebook. (I have other reasons.)

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
rowboat wrote:I will take your word for it as I refuse to have anything to do with Facebook.
Me too, neither, but it's not a dangerous link. That is a standard warning for visiting any offsite link. My site is not dangerous, except for those who are attached to their views and opinions. :stirthepot:


I understand, bhante. I am a regular visitor to your excellent website.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:00 am

rowboat wrote:
lyndon taylor: Cittasanto your link has some kind of bug and my computer is telling me it is not safe to open, might want to look into that...


I had the same warnings,
Hi rowboat.
I see it is the same as in the picture on Venerable pesala's link. I have had no problem, or warnings opening it.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:03 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
rowboat wrote:I will take your word for it as I refuse to have anything to do with Facebook.
Me too, neither, but it's not a dangerous link. That is a standard warning for visiting any offsite link. My site is not dangerous, except for those who are attached to their views and opinions. :stirthepot:

Odd that the five precepts club should be posting a link to the PDF on my site, although it says on every page of my site:
If you post an extract on a forum, post a link to the appropriate page. Please do not link directly to PDF, MP3, or ZIP files.

I posted it Bhante.
I didn't realise that it was from your site. during my search this was the only link to that translation I found and it was already the PDF.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby rowboat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:11 am

Cittasanto wrote:
rowboat wrote:
lyndon taylor: Cittasanto your link has some kind of bug and my computer is telling me it is not safe to open, might want to look into that...


I had the same warnings,
Hi rowboat.
I see it is the same as in the picture on Venerable pesala's link. I have had no problem, or warnings opening it.


Yes, thank-you Cittasanto. Ven. Pesala has already cleared up the misunderstanding.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:14 am

Cittasanto wrote: People do not go shopping with that intent, rather the intent is to have nourishment available.


That's true, but I think that most of have the option of buying non-meat products for nourishment. We all make choices.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:26 am

rowboat wrote:Yes, thank-you Cittasanto. Ven. Pesala has already cleared up the misunderstanding.

That was mainly about the warnings more than anything. I hadn't realised that links on facebook redirected through facebook when I posted that (not paying much attention to the URL.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:35 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: People do not go shopping with that intent, rather the intent is to have nourishment available.


That's true, but I think that most of have the option of buying non-meat products for nourishment. We all make choices.

most shoppers have the option, Yes. But that does not mean that they take that option; or those that do are kammically responsible for the animals death.

Edited for better clarity
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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