the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:29 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:.....
I don't feel self-righteous when I'm munching on my quorn fillets - I just know I'm doing right. Praise the Lord. :tongue:


....and pass the egg-free mayo..... :popcorn:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby panang » Wed Apr 16, 2014 1:54 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:.....
I don't feel self-righteous when I'm munching on my quorn fillets - I just know I'm doing right. Praise the Lord. :tongue:


....and pass the egg-free mayo..... :popcorn:



Took me a while to remember what Quorn fillets were. Never tried them, I eat Gardein mostly. And, yes to the egg free mayo!
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:34 pm

Ran across this plant neurobiology update in our lounge. Thought it may be of interest in this thread:

https://www.landesbioscience.com/journa ... B0258R.pdf :coffee:

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:47 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Ran across this plant neurobiology update in our lounge. Thought it may be of interest in this thread:

https://www.landesbioscience.com/journa ... B0258R.pdf :coffee:

_/\_Ron

I scanned through the article but did not read all of it. I didn't see anything about vegetarianism in it. What about the article did you think applies to this thread?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:38 pm

chownah wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Ran across this plant neurobiology update in our lounge. Thought it may be of interest in this thread:

https://www.landesbioscience.com/journa ... B0258R.pdf :coffee:

_/\_Ron

I scanned through the article but did not read all of it. I didn't see anything about vegetarianism in it. What about the article did you think applies to this thread?
chownah


Hi, Chownah. Sorry for my lack of specificity. :embarassed:

In threads such as this, one of the common themes is the alleged moral superiority of vegetarianism / veganism justified by the idea that plants are not sentient and therefore, harvesting them, which means variously ripping them from the soil by their roots, reaping them by cutting them into various convenient parts and then chopping them with a very sharp knife, or shredding them, eating them, and then gloating due to our imagined moral superiority... causes less harm than butchering animals. :jawdrop:

My response to this theme has been that plants are way more sentient than we have previously known them to be. The article provided in my post is but another of my feeble attempts to continue to address this ignorance on our part.

Bottom line: " Life must consume the nutrients of life in order to live in these samsaric realms in which we animals and plants currently exist." Unless we change our diets to "deceased" life forms, become like vultures, we all cause harm to other sentient life in order to live. We all take that, which is not freely given by consuming fruit. "No moral superiority. ".....so best we stop lecturing others to make us feel that way. To do so is "wrong speech" not right, harmonious speech. :soap:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:38 pm

I'm sorry but this is a classic straw man argument to argue that plants have feelings like animals, even if plants have sensory ability, they don't have a brain, and cannot process pain and suffering like animals obviously can, obviously the moral high ground is causing the least suffering for sentient beings, not worshiping plants.

Also as we've gone through so many times before, most plants killed for food in America go to feed animals for meat for your dinner plate, so obviously no moral high ground here.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:25 pm

^ Yes, I agree with what Lyndon wrote. And also, Ron's point is the Jain view. The Jains believe there is jiva or soul in plants. Buddhists do not believe this and rebirth is to Animal Kingdom and other celestial beings, not plants, minerals, microorganisms, etc.

And in any event, even in the Jain philosophy which believes in jiva in plants, they adopt vegetarianism, apparently to cause the least harm.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 4:48 pm

(...Is 'specificity' even a word.....?) :shock:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:38 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:(...Is 'specificity' even a word.....?) :shock:


Yes! It is a word, and one any good biochemist uses frequently. :tongue:

from: Dictionary.com:

spec·i·fic·i·ty [spes-uh-fis-i-tee] Show IPA
noun
1.
the quality or state of being specific.
2.
Biochemistry, Pharmacology . the selective attachment or influence of one substance on another, as an antibiotic and its target organism or an antibody and its specific antigen.
Origin:
1875–80; specific + -ity

Related forms
non·spec·i·fic·i·ty, noun
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:00 pm

As the old lady said,

"Die? I haven't got TIME to die my dear - I'm still too busy learning!!"

:namaste: - and thanks!
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:07 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:^ Yes, I agree with what Lyndon wrote. And also, Ron's point is the Jain view. The Jains believe there is jiva or soul in plants. Buddhists do not believe this and rebirth is to Animal Kingdom and other celestial beings, not plants, minerals, microorganisms, etc.

And in any event, even in the Jain philosophy which believes in jiva in plants, they adopt vegetarianism, apparently to cause the least harm.


I agree that a vegan life-style probably causes the least harm when killing other life-forms and eating them. As I said in my previous post, the only way to avoid this is to become a scavenger and to consume only already dead life-forms. :tongue: Then you will occupy the moral high-ground. :soap:
Dave, Yes, I have heard and read the "Jain" deflection before. I believe you pointed this out to me a year or so ago, when I posted a similar argument in another thread, which shows that we are both consistent with our arguments. But, there are Buddhists, who can read the latest scientific findings regarding plants, such as the one I provided, and can come to their own conclusions. Hopefully there are more than a few of those posting on this board. It seems (to me) foolish to believe that Buddha wanted us to stop learning about the true nature of ever evolving life-forms once he died. When Buddha asked of his Bhikkhus, "Which is larger, this number of leaves I hold in my hand or the number of leaves in the forest that surrounds us, he did not mean to say that because he didn't teach us all those other things that he knew, that we weren't free to discover and understand them for ourselves. Besides, what we "believe" is of little importance. Science allows us to discover, verify and validate the truth for ourselves. All we have to do is look and we can see the true nature of the life which surrounds us.

reference: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

John, we have discussed this point many times before, and I don't expect to change your mind. All that I was trying to do was to provide recent scientific findings regarding the sentient nature of our sessile co-habitants of Planet Earth. :reading: Because their brains aren't located in their heads, like ours doesn't mean that they aren't conscious, sentient, sapient, and intelligent. Should you ever decide to read the recent article I provided in full, you will find that they have all of the sensory organs that we do, plus more effective ones on The Chemical plane as do dogs and bears, when compared to us humans.

Interestingly, plants occupied and adapated to the land far before animal creatures eventually evolving into us humans climbed from beneath the seas. And, if it wasn't for them, we wouldn't even have oxygen to breathe. Some other version of us would still be metabolizing sulfur as did our earliest ancestors, The Thermo-philes (Archaea).

resource: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermophile



That's all I got!
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:48 pm

Hi Ron,
Thanks for the scientific research.

Hi David
Pac 10, Book of Discipline wrote:kathañhi nāma tumhe, moghapurisā, pathaviṃ khaṇissathapi khaṇāpessathapi! jīvasaññino hi, moghapurisā, manussā pathaviyā
The enlightened one, the lord, rebuked them, saying. "How can you, foolish men, dig the ground and have it dug? For, foolish men, people having consciousness as living beings [32] are in the ground.

I don't particularly like the translation but... The same rule also has lay people saying the earth is one facultied. So one could easily say from this that plants do have a life faculty according to Buddhism, it is just not an important issue.

Edit - my prefered rendering after consulting with a friend is "Because, foolish ones, people understand the ground has life".
Last edited by Cittasanto on Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Apr 29, 2014 9:01 pm

That could be referring to snakes, rodents, worms, insects etc.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:03 pm

The rule itself (as does the explanation) clearly deals with the ground, not what may be in it. I find no reason to assume what could be in it to be classified here as there are other rules that catch more facultied beings. I suspect the line quoted above is lost in translation at present somehow and contacted a friend regarding this.

manussā translated as living beings above actually means human being.

and I do recall somewhere saying plants have two faculties or something like that, but no idea where.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby seeker242 » Tue Apr 29, 2014 10:13 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Hi, Chownah. Sorry for my lack of specificity. :embarassed:

In threads such as this, one of the common themes is the alleged moral superiority of vegetarianism / veganism justified by the idea that plants are not sentient and therefore, harvesting them, which means variously ripping them from the soil by their roots, reaping them by cutting them into various convenient parts and then chopping them with a very sharp knife, or shredding them, eating them, and then gloating due to our imagined moral superiority... causes less harm than butchering animals. :jawdrop:

My response to this theme has been that plants are way more sentient than we have previously known them to be. The article provided in my post is but another of my feeble attempts to continue to address this ignorance on our part.

Bottom line: " Life must consume the nutrients of life in order to live in these samsaric realms in which we animals and plants currently exist." Unless we change our diets to "deceased" life forms, become like vultures, we all cause harm to other sentient life in order to live. We all take that, which is not freely given by consuming fruit. "No moral superiority. ".....so best we stop lecturing others to make us feel that way. To do so is "wrong speech" not right, harmonious speech. :soap:


I would not go so far as to say that "plants aren't sentient" has anything to do with moral superiority or lack thereof or any kind of justification. Even the most orthodox, traditional, non-vegetarian Buddhist traditions generally do not consider plants to be "sentient beings". Modern day scientists also generally do not accept the idea that plants are "sentient beings" the same as animals. They all recognize there is still a big difference between stabbing a cow and stabbing a carrot, regardless of any philosophy, biology or observation of plant communication, etc, etc.

:anjali:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Fri May 02, 2014 11:41 am

wow, you are still here :rolleye:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri May 02, 2014 1:32 pm

Be Mindful while you go about your day.

That includes in eating, and in what you eat.

Please folks... let's not get into the Kammic consequences of dicing a carrot.... :thinking:

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Fri May 02, 2014 7:12 pm

Ben wrote:Although a vegan, i am with Ajahn Dhammanando on this issue. Some things are more important than maintaining a dogmatic adherence to one's dietary preference t at every single meal - developing gratitude, sympathetic joy at another's meritorious action of offering Dana, and renunciation of one's own wishes and desires are cases in point.


No, sir. A dietary preference is when you prefer lettuce rather than cabbage, or apples rather than pears, or orange juice rather than a banana, or cooked food rather than a raw food. That's a preference. Being vegetarian it is not a dietary nothing. It's a state of being referring to nutrition.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sat May 03, 2014 11:55 am

nekete: "Being vegetarian it is not a dietary nothing. It's a state of being referring to nutrition."


Not sure what you are saying here, nekete. :thinking:

If you wouldn't mind, could you please review the following definitions and then clarify your meaning?

Thanks! :hug:

noun
vegetarian  
1. a person who does not eat or does not believe in eating meat, fish, fowl, or, in some cases, any food derived from animals, as eggs or cheese, but subsists on vegetables, fruits, nuts, grain, etc.
adjective
2. of or pertaining to vegetarianism or vegetarians.
3. devoted to or advocating this practice.
4. consisting solely of vegetables: vegetarian vegetable soup.


Origin:
1835–45; veget(able) + -arian

Related forms
non·veg·e·tar·i·an, adjective, noun

Can be confused: vegan, vegetarian.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2014.

World English Dictionary
vegetarian (ˌvɛdʒɪˈtɛərɪən)

— n
1. a person who advocates or practises vegetarianism

— adj
2. relating to, advocating, or practising vegetarianism
3. cookery strictly, consisting of vegetables and fruit only, but usually including milk, cheese, eggs, etc

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
Cite This Source
Etymonline
Word Origin & History

vegetarian
1839, irregular formation from vegetable (n.) + -arian, as in agrarian, etc. "The general use of the word appears to have been largely due to the formation of the Vegetarian Society in Ramsgate in 1847."
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 03, 2014 12:05 pm

nekete wrote:
Ben wrote:Although a vegan, i am with Ajahn Dhammanando on this issue. Some things are more important than maintaining a dogmatic adherence to one's dietary preference at every single meal - developing gratitude, sympathetic joy at another's meritorious action of offering Dana, and renunciation of one's own wishes and desires are cases in point.


No, sir. A dietary preference is when you prefer lettuce rather than cabbage, or apples rather than pears, or orange juice rather than a banana, or cooked food rather than a raw food.


No, that would be a CULINARY preference.

Definition of culinary in English:

Line breaks: cu¦lin|ary
Pronunciation: /ˈkʌlɪn(ə)ri /
ADJECTIVE

Of or for cooking, in cuisine:

Examples:
culinary skills
culinary ingredients
savour the culinary delights of the region


That's a preference. Being vegetarian it is not a dietary nothing. It's a state of being referring to nutrition.


being a vegetarian is having certain culinary preferences, and shunning others, on health, taste or moral grounds.

I would surmise the misunderstanding may be because English may not be your first language.
But being a vegetarian is most certainly a 'dietary preference'.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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