the great vegetarian debate

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:45 pm

There was a series on UK TV some time ago, on the RSPCA, and how 6 new recruits in different parts of the county were doing in their training.
As viewers, we followed their progress.

One of the things they had to do was to visit an abattoir and put an animal to sleep by shooting it through the brain with a gun.
It was explained that in any event, the likelihood of their having to ever actually carry out such a task as qualified officers was extremely rare. Of their 6 personal mentors and 6 course instructors, only one of them had been called to carry out the required action, and even he arrived on the scene to find a vet had already put the animal out of its misery.
But they at least had to know how to perform the task quickly and efficiently.

Only 2 of the 6 came up to the task, and they were visibly shaken and affected by their ordeal. One had to take the remainder of the day off.

The other four deferred that part of the training, and were advised that they would either have to complete the task within the first 6 months of gaining their Pass mark and joining the ranks of qualified officers, or they would have to 'reconsider their positions within the Society'.
3 of the four 'refusals' were male. The two who managed to shoot the bulls were one male and one female.

Only three of the six ever completed their full training.

It seems that even those one would consider qualified to cope with any aspect of dealing with an injured, distressed or abused animal find it challenging (to put it mildly).

Imagine what would happen if every human being was responsible for dealing with their own meat as food.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby manas » Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:10 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Imagine what would happen if every human being was responsible for dealing with their own meat as food.


I think if that were the case, most of us living in modern societies where the eating of meat is totally unnecessary for survival, would go vegetarian right away. But there are places in the world even today, such as some deserts, where the human inhabitants either kill and eat animals, or starve. They are already responsible for procuring their own meat, so it would be no trouble for them at all.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:18 pm

LXNDR wrote:
walkart wrote:Peoples who buy meat motivate others to hold a wrong livelihood. Imho.

who then do we care about, the slaughtered live creatures or the slaughterers?


Both. Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby LXNDR » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:08 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
LXNDR wrote:
walkart wrote:Peoples who buy meat motivate others to hold a wrong livelihood. Imho.

who then do we care about, the slaughtered live creatures or the slaughterers?


Both. Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job.


they must be somehow working off their old kamma
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:33 pm

As I told my mother: " Every ten years or so we should buy a new car, Ma!" :tongue:
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:19 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:One of the things they had to do was to visit an abattoir and put an animal to sleep by shooting it through the brain with a gun.


There was a report on my local news a while back, where 2 workers at a turkey farm had been filmed kicking ( live ) turkeys around like footballs. Apparently this kind of thing happens quite a lot - it suggests that workers in these places become very dehumanised.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:24 pm

" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby LXNDR » Fri Jun 27, 2014 2:37 pm

chownah wrote:" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
chownah


life is jungle, but not slaughterhouse i.e. extermination camp
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:56 am

LXNDR wrote:
chownah wrote:" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
chownah


life is jungle, but not slaughterhouse i.e. extermination camp

I see you disagree with my post and propose that life is a jungle. Can you explain how you see the idea of a jungle as being more appropriate than a slaughterhouse?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby LXNDR » Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:13 am

chownah wrote:I see you disagree with my post and propose that life is a jungle. Can you explain how you see the idea of a jungle as being more appropriate than a slaughterhouse?
chownah


there's freedom in the jungle, everyone is given a chance to escape death if they're smart, skillful, strong and resilient enough
in the extermination camp the death is inescapable and sure regardless of one's personal qualities and abilities just because of the lack of freedom, nobody goes out alive
this is as far as struggle for survival and competition between forms of life are concerned

on a larger scale however life on the Earth is indeed a slaughterhouse in a sense that everyone is sure to die
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:38 pm

chownah wrote:" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
chownah


But we all have choices. I wouldn't want to contribute even in a small way to all the suffering involved in the meat industry in general and slaugherhouses in particular.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby chownah » Sun Jun 29, 2014 4:24 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:" Working in a slaughterhouse must be a horribly soul-destroying job."

Life is a slaughterhouse. Life exists in its diverse forms because life feeds on life to recycle the effort expended in assembling biological chemicals. This is the way life really is. You are the result of life feeding on life and everyday you and your waste products are being eaten.....you are being eaten alive .....life is a slaughter house.
chownah


But we all have choices. I wouldn't want to contribute even in a small way to all the suffering involved in the meat industry in general and slaugherhouses in particular.

Then don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:29 am

chownah wrote:Then don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry.
chownah


My local supermarket has plenty of non-meat products, so I choose to buy those rather than meat products.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:35 am

chownah wrote:Then don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry.
chownah


Hi Chownah,

I don't buy meat. It's that simple. You don't need to try pervert it into something else.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:38 am

"... don't work in those industries and don't buy anything from any store that sells meat because in shopping there you are supporting the meat industry. chownah


There is nothing morally wrong with eating meat, per se, aside from the resulting health issues (cardio-vascular disease, cancer, viral and bacterial infections), which are inordinate. It is the manner in which the meat is "harvested" for nutritional needs, which determines good or evil kamma.

It all goes back to the first precept: "Cause no harm to sentient beings." For example: Killing a living sentient being causes harm vs. scraping up a dead being from the roadway, skinning it, grinding it up and making sausage, cooking it and eating it causes no harm except for the medical issues already mentioned. Eating animals that die of old age, or which burn to death in a fire, which you did not intentionally cause is also free of evil karmic debt, because there was no intention to cause harm.

Waiting at the bottom of cliffs ending above the sea during the annual lemming migrations seems like another way to harvest fresh, nutritious meat. :popcorn:

But then we have to consider the second precept: "Take not that, which has not been freely given."

.....Are fruits, seeds, and stalks of plants freely given, or does stealing them from plants prevent natural plant reproduction? ( I could honestly argue either case.)

:coffee: I have always wondered: "Does standard vegan hubris lead to heavenly realms, or hell realms?" :shrug:

And finally: "Do threads like this ever end?" :shrug:
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-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:40 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Eating animals that die of old age, or which burn to death in a fire, which you did not intentionally cause is also free of evil karmic debt, because there was no intention to cause harm.


So how do you view deciding to buy meat in a supermarket when there are non-meat options available?
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:44 am

Ron-The-Elder wrote:And finally: "Do threads like this ever end?"


Hi Ron,

Yes. When will it end?

Also, where do you see the hubris?

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:46 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Eating animals that die of old age, or which burn to death in a fire, which you did not intentionally cause is also free of evil karmic debt, because there was no intention to cause harm.



So how do you view deciding to buy meat in a supermarket when there are non-meat options available?


I see financially and materially supporting the slaughter of living beings to satisfy our nutritional needs as a violation of the first precept: "Cause no harm to sentient beings."
Last edited by Ron-The-Elder on Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:58 am

beeblebrox wrote:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:And finally: "Do threads like this ever end?"


Hi Ron,

Yes. When will it end?

Also, where do you see the hubris?

:anjali:


It seems to me that whenever we lecture other adults :soap: as to the moral superiority of our ways, while at the same time condemning or labeling their ways as inferior, even though we may in fact be right and just in our decisions as to how to live our lives , we should consider if we are guilty of demonstrating excessive pride, excessive self-confidence and arrogance, which behaviors define "hubris".
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby beeblebrox » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:13 am

Hi Ron,

Is that limited to the vegans, in this thread?

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