In the absence of vinnana there is...?

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In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:25 am

[ This topic has been split from Question About Deep Sleep - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=9582 ]

Greetings Freefall,

freefall68 wrote:What is Buddhism's take on deep sleep? Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?

That's a very interesting question. In order to maintain a degree of continuity between waking hours, different lifetimes, and to support the Abhidhammic notion of one moment of consciousness being dependent upon the former, the commentarial Theravada tradition came up with this bridging notion of bhavanga-citta.

Bhavanga-citta: 'subconsciousness' bhavanga-citta is a kamma-resultant state of consciousness vipāka, and that, in birth as a human or in higher forms of existence, it is always the result of good, or advantageous kamma kusala-kamma-vipāka, though in varying degrees of strength see: patisandhi, end of the article. The same holds true for rebirth consciousness patisandhi and death consciousness cuti, which are only particular manifestations of subconsciousness. In Vis.M XIV it is said:

As soon as rebirth-consciousness in the embryo at the time of conception has ceased, there arises a similar subconsciousness with exactly the same object, following immediately upon rebirth-consciousness and being the result of this or that kamma intentional action done in a former birth and remembered there at the moment before death. And again a further similar state of subconsciousness arises. Now, as long as no other consciousness arises to interrupt the continuity of the life-stream, so long the life-stream, like the flow of a river, rises in the same way again and again, even during dreamless sleep and at other times. In this way one has to understand the continuous arising of those states of consciousness in the life-stream. Cf. viññāna-kicca

Source: http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... anga-citta

However, bhavanga-citta doesn't appear in the suttas, because consciousness as taught by the Buddha is instead like what Walpola Rahula described in your earlier quote. [reposted here on account of the split topic]

Then the Buddha went on to explain consciousness in detail: 'Consciousness is
named according to whatever condition through which it arises: on account of the
eye and visible forms arises a consciousness, and it is called visual consciousness; on
account of ear and sounds arises a consciousness, and it is called auditory
consciousness; on account of nose and odour arises a consciousness, and it is called
olfactory consciousness; on account of tongue and tastes arises a consciousness, and it
is called gustatory consciousness; on account of body and tangible objects arises a
consciousness, and it is called tactile consciousness; on account of the mind and
mind-objects (ideas and thoughts) arises a consciousness, and it is called mental
consciousness.'


...and then..

The Buddha declared in unequivocal terms that consciousness depends on
matter, sensation, perception and mental formations, and that it cannot exist
independently from them. He says: 'Consciousness may exist having matter as it
means, matter as its object, matter as its support, and seeking delight it may grow,
increase and develop; or consciousness may exist having sensation as it means… or
perception as it means… or mental formation as it means, mental formation as its
object, mental formation as its support, and seeking delight it may grow, increase
and develop.



freefall68 wrote:I ask this question because the issue of deep sleep consciousness is given lot of emphasis in advaita system. When I get up in the morning and declare that "I had a nice sleep", is it not my direct knowledge?

Such a comment would likely be based on factors such as your memory of any disturbances that were experienced during the night, and how your refreshed or otherwise you feel upon waking. Both of those factors relate to what is experienced.

On the other hand bhavanga-citta doesn't in any way relate to what is experienced via the six sense-media, and thus by the Buddha's definition (in contradistiction to the broader Theravada school) has no right to be regarded as citta, yet it is critical to upholding the structural continuity of the Abhidhammic framework. The Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka on the other hand expressed no interest in viññāna-kicca (functions of consciousness), having no need for scholastic models of transmigration and continuity.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby dreamov » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:01 am

freefall68 wrote:Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support? I ask this question because the issue of deep sleep consciousness is given lot of emphasis in advaita system. When I get up in the morning and declare that "I had a nice sleep", is it not my direct knowledge?


there are three kinds of formations that support the consciousness: bodily formations, verbal formations and mental formations. During deep sleep neither verbal formations nor mental formations are there to support consciousness but bodily formations (in-&-out breaths) is still there to support consciousness and that is why you are well aware of "your nice sleep".
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:07 am

Greetings Dreamov,
dreamov wrote:bodily formations (in-&-out breaths) is still there to support consciousness and that is why you are well aware of "your nice sleep".

So to clarify, you're saying there's body-consciousness during sleep?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dreamov,
dreamov wrote:bodily formations (in-&-out breaths) is still there to support consciousness and that is why you are well aware of "your nice sleep".

So to clarify, you're saying there's body-consciousness during sleep?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Is there any consciousness during deep, non-dream sleep? And how do you know?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:17 am

Greetings Tilt,

Is there any consciousness during deep, non-dream sleep? And how do you know?

Are you asking me or dreamov?

If you're asking me, I believe Walpola Rahula's explanation satisfies... i.e. there is either consciousness rooted in an object, or there is not.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Is there any consciousness during deep, non-dream sleep? And how do you know?

Are you asking me or dreamov?

If you're asking me, I believe Walpola Rahula's explanation satisfies... i.e. there is either consciousness rooted in an object, or there is not.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Asking you. So, in deep sleep, in there consciousness?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:25 am

Greetings Tilt,

There is citta only if it is accompanied by an object - otherwise there is not. Or as quoted from my signature, ""No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler).

If you are asking about "consciousness" (in an English and/or scientific sense) that's a different question altogether... one not addressed by the Buddha of the Sutta Pitaka because of its complete irrelevance to dukkha (suffering / unsatisfactoriness) and nirodha (its cessation).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

There is citta only if it is accompanied by an object.
Is there citta/viññāna at play in deep, dreamless sleep?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:29 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Is there citta/viññāna at play in deep, dreamless sleep?

If there is no object, no.

"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler).

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:30 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Is there citta/viññāna at play in deep, dreamless sleep?

If there is no object, no.

"No phenomenon is a phenomenon, until it is an observed phenomenon" (J.A. Wheeler).

Metta,
Retro. :)
So, you do not know.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:32 am

Greetings Tilt,

What don't I know, Tilt?

SN 35.23: Sabba Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

"Bhavanga-citta" is beyond range, beyond the all.

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

What don't I know, Tilt?
Is there citta/viññāna at play in deep, dreamless sleep? You have yet to answer this question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:36 am

Greetings Tilt,

I will not partake in papanca monkey chatter by attempting to speculate upon or explain something that is beyond the all.

That others choose to do so is their problem, not mine.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:39 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

I will not partake in papanca monkey chatter by attempting to explain something that is beyond the all.

That others choose to do so is their problem, not mine.

Metta,
Retro. :)
And how is this question referring to anything beyond the "all?"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:43 am

Greetings Tilt,

Because it goes beyond phenomonology of the all, into questions of whether something ontologically exists or not, independent of experience of them... it falls foul of the SN 12.15 fallacy.

There is only viññāna where there is an object for that viññāna.

What kind of answer do you think I should be giving?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:48 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Because it goes beyond phenomonology of the all, into questions of whether something ontologically exists or not, independent of experience of them... it falls foul of the SN 12.15 fallacy.
You seem to be assuming that
i am positing or supporting the bhavanga notion. Not at all. I am asking a very practical question as to what happens to citta/viññāna during deep, dreamless sleep. Is it there or not?

There is only viññāna where there is an object for that viññāna.
So, you are saying that during deep dreamless sleep there is no citta/viññāna?

What kind of answer do you think I should be giving?
A straightforward one, I would hope.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:06 am

Greetings tilt,

My answer is very straightforward... There is either vinnana with object or there is not, at any point in time. During a night's sleep there will likely be moments of both.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings tilt,

My answer is very straightforward...
Not at all. I ask very directly: Is there citta/viññāna at play in deep, dreamless sleep?

There is either vinnana with object or there is not, at any point in time. During a night's sleep there will likely be moments of both.
You know this from direct experience?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby dreamov » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dreamov,
dreamov wrote:bodily formations (in-&-out breaths) is still there to support consciousness and that is why you are well aware of "your nice sleep".

So to clarify, you're saying there's body-consciousness during sleep?

Metta,
Retro. :)



yes or else how would you know that you slept well?
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Re: Question about deep sleep

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:07 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Not at all. I ask very directly: Is there citta/viññāna at play in deep, dreamless sleep?

Since you've been dissatisfied by my answers, I'll challenge your question... what do you mean by "at play"?

retrofuturist wrote:There is either vinnana with object or there is not, at any point in time. During a night's sleep there will likely be moments of both.

tiltbillings wrote:You know this from direct experience?

Yes, that's precisely how I know it.

For example...

I fall asleep at 10pm, intermittent dreaming, the dog wakes me up at 1am to go the toilet, back to sleep, more intermittent dreaming, wake up, look at the clock, it's 4am, back to sleep, perceive it becoming lighter and wonder how long it is until the alarm goes off, look at the clock, back to sleep, alarm goes off...

In that sequence of events spanning 9 hours there's moments of consciousness when there is consciousness associated with one of the six sense doors. There are also periods when there is no consciousness associated with the sense doors, as identifiable from the gaps in time that border the moments of consciousness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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