In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:you have to also be willing to engage with counter-arguments, and not just dismiss them as "instinctive reactions".
I like counter-arguments, and welcome them... I believe the quality of topics would benefit from on-topic counter-arguments and would like to see more of them.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:I have been at this longer than you have been alive. I am well aware of the points you are making, and because I do not agree with your rigid intellectual phenomanalisam does not mean that I am indulging in an "instinctive reaction to what they think I'm saying." Things are not ever so black and white as you are painting them.
Present positively framed on-topic counter-arguments then, rather than incessant pokes.
tiltbillings wrote:rigid intellectual phenomanalisam
:strawman:

"Rigid intellectual"ism applies more to the scholastic formation of concepts/ideas (such as bhavanga-citta) which by definition, cannot be experienced... and then constructing one's world view around one's own intellectual scaffolding (sankharas).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Perhaps we can get...

:focus:

Freefall asked, "Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"

I've presented an argument to say "no"... I feel I've taken this argument as far as it needs to go. People can decide whether it is satisfactory or not, according to their reason and experience.

Does anyone have a counter-argument to present?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:I have been at this longer than you have been alive. I am well aware of the points you are making, and because I do not agree with your rigid intellectual phenomanalisam does not mean that I am indulging in an "instinctive reaction to what they think I'm saying." Things are not ever so black and white as you are painting them.
Present positively framed on-topic counter-arguments then, rather than incessant pokes.
That would be excellent advice for you to follow, given your incessant pokes at commentarial Buddhism. This very thread came about from an unnecessary and inappropriate poke by you at the commentarial tradition in the "Discovering Theravada" section.
"Rigid intellectual"ism applies more to the scholastic formation of concepts/ideas (such as bhavanga-citta) which by definition, cannot be experienced... and then constructing one's world view around one's own intellectual scaffolding (sankharas).
He said, making a poke. Maybe you might try to understand the standpoint and context of the originators of the bhavanga notion and what role it actually plays before you criticize it, before you actually dismiss it, as you have the Abhidhamma, as running counter to the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Ben »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Perhaps we can get...

:focus:

Freefall asked, "Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"

I've presented an argument to say "no"... I feel I've taken this argument as far as it needs to go. People can decide whether it is satisfactory or not, according to their reason and experience.

Does anyone have a counter-argument to present?

Metta,
Retro. :)
And I would answer "yes". And I know this from direct experience - as has others.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:This very thread came about from an unnecessary and inappropriate poke by you at the commentarial tradition in the "Discovering Theravada" section..
I disagree. The sutta perspective explained by Walpola Rahula was irreconcilable with the Abhidhammic notion of a citta devoid of object. That's not an "unnecessary and inappropriate poke"... that's highlighting an inconsistency, one which no one seems interested in resolving.
tiltbillings wrote:Maybe you might try to understand the standpoint and context of the originators of the bhavanga notion and what role it actually plays before you criticize it, before you actually dismiss it, as you have the Abhidhamma, as running counter to the Buddha's teachings.
Based on the Four Great References, I have negligible personal interest in any Buddhist school's Abhidhamma... but if you wish to present an on-topic counter-argument, showing either that:-

- The Abhidhamma is consistent with what Walpola Rahula presented about the Buddha's teachings on vinnana
- There is consciousness in deep sleep

... then the floor is open to you.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
retrofuturist wrote:Freefall asked, "Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"
Ben wrote:And I would answer "yes". And I know this from direct experience - as has others
This experience you refer to... is it mind-consciousness, body-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, ear-consciousness, eye-consciousness, or nose-consciousness? Or something else?

I would argue that if it is any of those listed, it does not qualify as the "deep sleep" being referred to, but rather, it is consciousness associated with an object.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Retro,
I question whether deep sleep is actually consciousness with no object.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

Is your thought that it might be:

- consciousness with object
- not consciousness

:?:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by Ben »

consciousness with object
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:This very thread came about from an unnecessary and inappropriate poke by you at the commentarial tradition in the "Discovering Theravada" section..
I disagree. The sutta perspective explained by Walpola Rahula was irreconcilable with the Abhidhammic notion of a citta devoid of object. That's not an "unnecessary and inappropriate poke"... that's highlighting an inconsistency, one which no one seems interested in resolving.
The section is "Discovering Theravada." Theravada -- by definition -- includes the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. That there are later, minority, positions that are critical of the more traditional position is fine, but they are better discuissed in a different section.
tiltbillings wrote:Maybe you might try to understand the standpoint and context of the originators of the bhavanga notion and what role it actually plays before you criticize it, before you actually dismiss it, as you have the Abhidhamma, as running counter to the Buddha's teachings.
Based on the Four Great References, I have negligible personal interest in any Buddhist school's Abhidhamma... but if you wish to present an on-topic counter-argument, showing either that:
If you are going to criticize a point of view, it is up to you to show that you have a good handle on what that point of view is actually about, otherwise it is naught more than a strawman criticism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:The section is "Discovering Theravada." Theravada -- by definition -- includes the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. That there are later, minority, positions that are critical of the more traditional position is fine, but they are better discuissed in a different section.
When the Suttas and Abhidhammic Commentary are at odds, as they are here (unless anyone wishes to attempt the still unattempted reconciliation), there is no one single definitive Theravada position to provide. It is entirely appropriate to present the different views that exist within the spectrum of Theravada, because it is the Discovering Theravada forum, not the Discovering Mahavihara forum.
tiltbillings wrote:If you are going to criticize a point of view, it is up to you to show that you have a good handle on what that point of view is actually about, otherwise it is naught more than a strawman criticism.
Just because I don't follow it in my practice or give it much credence, doesn't mean I haven't investigated it. I have read texts like A Manual Of Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and some of Nina Van Gorkom's works so I'm certainly not unfamiliar with the concepts. I think those readings alone (let alone other readings done in the Abhidhamma space) are sufficient by way of investigation to allow me to wager an opinion. If you wish to demonstrate that I have understood them incorrectly, then please present your counter arguments, or hold your peace.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by octathlon »

Just coming in and can't read through every post, but
"Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"
I would like to know what is the evidence for the original assumption, that there are no mental formations during deep sleep. I don't think we can just assume that because we don't "remember" them after waking up that they didn't occur. Did I miss that part of the thread?
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:consciousness with object
In this case, what is the object, bearing in mind the following?
SN 35.23 - Sabba Sutta wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Octathlon,
octathlon wrote:Just coming in and can't read through every post, but
"Is there a consciousness during deep sleep when no mental formations are there for support?"
I would like to know what is the evidence for the original assumption, that there are no mental formations during deep sleep. I don't think we can just assume that because we don't "remember" them after waking up that they didn't occur. Did I miss that part of the thread?
The original post in this topic contains a link to the original topic in the Discovering Theravada forum from which it spawned.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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