In the absence of vinnana there is...?

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:48 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Now, I certainly could be quite wrong, but mind -- citta -- is used in the singular in these texts. One never seems to have multiple cittas going on at the same time in the suttas, and it seems to be the same with viññāna. Please show me otherwise. So, do we see and hear at the same? The Abhidhamma, drawing from the suttas would say no.

I agree that it seems that one never have multiple cittas going on. But to say we don't see and hear at the same time requires accepting the Abhidhamma understanding of citta. I don't see why seeing may be one citta and hearing another like the Abhidhamma is supposing. As I see it, seeing and hearing happens within one citta (mind) simultaneously.
tiltbillings wrote:What does happen is that awareness can and does move with incredible rapidity among the various inputs of the senses giving us the sensation of seeing, hearing, touching things all at the same time. I think that the suttas and the Abhidhamma are correct in this, but I am open -- always so -- to the possibility of being quite wrong.
As I see it there is the sensation of seeing, hearing, touching things all at once within one citta (mind) and the "level" of attention on each sensation may vary of course. The awareness depending on attention certainly can and does move with incredible rapidity among the various inputs of these senses but this doesn't necessarily mean that there have to be one distinctive citta (mind) for each of those sensations.
tiltbillings wrote:The place to start would be to show us what the Buddha talked about multiple/parallel/simultaneous inputs of the senses, giving rises to multiple/parallel/simultaneous viññāna and cittas.

Maybe the place to start would be to figure out what exactly the Buddha meant by "citta".

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Travis » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:03 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Travis wrote:In Nanananda's Nibbana Sermons there is a discussion of anusaya that he translates as "latency" that might add something to the discussion. . . .
Very good stuff. Thanks. It is also good to see that Ven Nanananda is not a rebirth denier.


Nanananda has been a big help for me to get beyond my reluctance to delve into any more "post Buddha" literature. I came into Theravada to actually read the suttas and escape the Mahayana addenda, not trade it for Theravada adenda. He stands out among all that I have read in that he both admits to certain commentarial short-comings, but seems to always try to find a way to not "throw the baby out with the bathwater," as I might be inclined to do in my desire to respectfully stick to the suttas.

It would be interesting to see what people who have a broader base (with the commentaries, etc.) would make of what he says, but that is a topic for another day... if anyone is game, that is. :thinking:
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby daverupa » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:50 pm

tiltbillings wrote:The suttas certainly suggest, in conventional terms, one citta at a time:

It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worlding to take as self this body… rather than the mind. For what reason? The body … is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fify, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [viññāna]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grans still another, so too that which is called 'mind [citta],' 'mentality [mano],' or 'consciousness [viññāna]' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: ‘When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this that arises…. SN II 94-5


"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you know the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with your own awareness? Do you discern a mind [citta] with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion; a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion; a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion; a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind; an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind;an excelled mind [one that is not on the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind; a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind; a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind?" SN II 121



I don't see how these excerpts lend themselves to one citta at a time. They don't lend themselves to an interpretation of multiple parallel cittas, either. Differentiating cittas in this way is itself an abhidhammic enterprise, and asking the question leads to a false dichotomy: one citta at a time, or many? It assumes one citta and another are differentiated, and that one had to cease in order for another to appear or that many arise and fall. It's event metaphysics, and it's the way the abhidhamma goes astray.

The Suttas are process-oriented, which is why idapaccayata is brought up in this context. The citta now: is it released or not? Is it deluded or not? It's very fast, do not take it as the Self, but because of conditionality, one can incline it to nibbana, so watch for wholesome and unwholesome cittas, and train accordingly.

:shrug:

The entire discussion is bewilderingly tangential.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:25 pm

Hi Retro,

You pointed out that we've discussed one citta at a time before. Since that applies to everything in this thread, that's hardly answering the question. We have discussed your radically-momentary phenomenology method of rejecting certain things as proliferation many times and for me the result is always the same (that I don't buy it).

Many meditatators confirm that with sufficient calm and mindfulness they confirm that the appears to only be one citta at a time. It's not much of an answer to just keep quoting suttas if we are supposed to be using the Dhamma as a way of investigating experience. Are you interested in discussing experience, Or are you only interested in academic analysis of what the suttas say about investigating experience?

It seems to me this is the key point of difference here. Some of us proceed from the working hypothesis that the abhidhamma and commentaries preserve (among other things) some extremely useful practical information gathered by practitioners from the time of the Buddha on. Your position seems to be that they are merely scholarly ramblings of no practical importance. Of course, it would be possible to level exactly the same criticism at any analysis, including that of Vens. Nanavira, Nananada, etc, etc. So where does that leave us?

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Ben » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:54 pm

Well said, Mike.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Travis » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:01 pm

mikenz66 wrote:It seems to me this is the key point of difference here. Some of us proceed from the working hypothesis that the abhidhamma and commentaries preserve (among other things) some extremely useful practical information gathered by practitioners from the time of the Buddha on. Your position seems to be that they are merely scholarly ramblings of no practical importance. Of course, it would be possible to level exactly the same criticism at any analysis, including that of Vens. Nanavira, Nananada, etc, etc. So where does that leave us?


If I might be so bold mikenz66, I think the problem may be that the commentaries probably should be placed in the same category as that of "Vens. Nanavira, Nanananda, etc, etc." (secondary sources subject to criticism) but often tend to be treated as if they are as much of an authority as the suttas themselves. As long as someone accepts the validity of the suttas it is of no concern of mine how they might regard any secondary source, as long as they are not pushing it as anything other than that.

Respectfully,
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:17 pm

Hi Travis,

That's a good point. But there seems to be a subtext in some of these arguments that commentaries cannot be taken seriously because their description of experience is mere proliferation.

In my view we should acknowledge and investigate the truly excellent scholarship of Ven Nananda (and the scholarship and experience many other modern practitioners/teachers/scholars) as well as the scholarship and experience of the ancients...
:bow: :bow: :bow:

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Travis » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:28 pm

I confess my ignorance to the subtextual happenings, but absolutely agree with what you are saying, Mike. :clap:
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Kenshou » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:45 pm

daverupa wrote:I don't see how these excerpts lend themselves to one citta at a time. They don't lend themselves to an interpretation of multiple parallel cittas, either...

The Suttas are process-oriented, which is why idapaccayata is brought up in this context. The citta now: is it released or not? Is it deluded or not? It's very fast, do not take it as the Self, but because of conditionality, one can incline it to nibbana, so watch for wholesome and unwholesome cittas, and train accordingly.
I agree with you here, it doesn't seem to me that this issue of one vs many is even addressed. The issues that are addressed are what you've summarized. The mind is fleeting, unsatisfactory (like everything else), make good use of it and develop wholesome qualities of mind that are conductive to that understanding and lead to liberation.

Whether the mind is a sequence of quick singular events, or several processes simultaneously, the basic nature of it remains the same.
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:52 pm

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Many meditatators confirm that with sufficient calm and mindfulness they confirm that the appears to only be one citta at a time.

If true, I bow to their lightning insight!

:bow: :bow: :bow:

"Cittas arise and dissolve in a person at a tremendous rate of more than a thousand billion times per eye-wink, and there are about 250 eye-winks in a second. So the life-time of a citta (consciousness) is less than one-thousand billionth of a second." - http://www.bdcu.org.au/BDDR/bddr14no1/abhi082.html

:bow: :bow: :bow:

mikenz66 wrote:Some of us proceed from the working hypothesis that the abhidhamma and commentaries preserve (among other things) some extremely useful practical information gathered by practitioners from the time of the Buddha on.

"In the canonical text the moment of presence is not mentioned by reason of wise reflection out of consideration for the disposition of those receiving the teaching, although in fact in consideration for the disposition of those receiving the teaching in some places the Abhidhamma teaching does occur, as when it is taught that the arising of materiality is to be distinguished at twofold as accumulation and continuity."
http://www.bdcu.org.au/BDDR/bddr14no1/abhi082.html

Different strokes - different folks.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Your position seems to be that they are merely scholarly ramblings of no practical importance.

Can be, but don't have to be. I'd say there's both wheat and chaff, most likely separable by what delineates actual experience, versus unfounded speculative scholastic papanca rooted in realism.

mikenz66 wrote:Of course, it would be possible to level exactly the same criticism at any analysis, including that of Vens. Nanavira, Nananada, etc, etc. So where does that leave us?

Firstly, I'll tell you where it leave me... It leaves me evaluating all of the above in accordance with the Teacher's instructions...

DN 16: Maha-parinibbana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
The Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

Then the Blessed One said: "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or: 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn. Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."


SN 20.7: Ani Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1]

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Note
[1] Ironically, the Commentary notes that the drum originally could be heard for twelve leagues, but in its final condition couldn't be heard even from behind a curtain.

Your turn, where does it leaves you?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Interesting. In the neuroscience model, the action of neurotransmission--the transmission of a signal from one neuron to another--has a "rising" or stimulation phase, a peak phase, and a falling phase. each of which is measured in microseconds. After which, the neuron enters a refractory phase where it cannot transmit for a period of time.

Sorry to interject materialism here, but if the noble mediators actually perceived the actions of their own neurotransmissions, and this is what is meant by the rising and falling of cittas how awesome. If not, then never mind.

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:35 pm

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The suttas certainly suggest, in conventional terms, one citta at a time:

It would be better, …. SN II 94-5


"Then, having known thus, . . . . SN II 121



I don't see how these excerpts lend themselves to one citta at a time. They don't lend themselves to an interpretation of multiple parallel cittas, either. Differentiating cittas in this way is itself an abhidhammic enterprise, and asking the question leads to a false dichotomy: one citta at a time, or many? It assumes one citta and another are differentiated, and that one had to cease in order for another to appear or that many arise and fall. It's event metaphysics, and it's the way the abhidhamma goes astray.
Let me clarify. First of all, the suttas here are using conventional speech within a Dhamma context talking about citta/viññāna in the way they do, obviously, but they (and hundreds more that could be quoted) point to a fact about the nature of how we are aware, and it does not look like we have multiple awareness going on at exactly the same time. A citta/viññāna has, as we can see in the suttas and the Abhidhamma, multiple factors at play that give rise to a citta/viññāna at any one time. It is not the case that one citta/viññāna arises solely because of the cause and conditioning of the preceding citta/viññāna.

The Suttas are process-oriented, which is why idapaccayata is brought up in this context.
And this is equally true of the Abhidhamma.

The citta now: is it released or not? Is it deluded or not? It's very fast, do not take it as the Self, but because of conditionality, one can incline it to nibbana, so watch for wholesome and unwholesome cittas, and train accordingly.
Citta/viññāna and dhammas are a way of talking a dynamic conditioned co-produced process.

Piatigorsky (THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, p 146) explains: “the meaning of each abhidhammic term [dhamma] consists (or is the sum) of all its positional meanings and of all positional meanings of its connotations.” Which is to say: We simpy cannot say that 'a dharma is... (a predicate follows)', because a dharma, in fact, 'is' no thing, yet [it is] a term denoting (not being) a certain relation or type of relation to thought, consciousness or mind. That is, dharma is not a concept in the accepted terminological sense of the latter, but a purely relational notion. (Piatigorsky, THE BUDDHIST PHILOSOPHY OF THOUGHT, page 181.) And this is something is derived from the suttas. Dhammas (and citta/viññāna) are ways of talking about the process of experience.

The entire discussion is bewilderingly tangential.
Is it it? Damdifino.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:50 pm

Greetings,

daverupa wrote:I don't see how these excerpts lend themselves to one citta at a time. They don't lend themselves to an interpretation of multiple parallel cittas, either. Differentiating cittas in this way is itself an abhidhammic enterprise, and asking the question leads to a false dichotomy: one citta at a time, or many? It assumes one citta and another are differentiated, and that one had to cease in order for another to appear or that many arise and fall. It's event metaphysics, and it's the way the abhidhamma goes astray.

:goodpost:

On the subject of metaphysics, I trust we're all familiar with the simile of the Arrow and the poison, so I'll skip to the conclusion.

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared. And what is undeclared by me? 'The cosmos is eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is not eternal,' is undeclared by me. 'The cosmos is finite'... 'The cosmos is infinite'... 'The soul & the body are the same'... 'The soul is one thing and the body another'... 'After death a Tathagata exists'... 'After death a Tathagata does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata both exists & does not exist'... 'After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,' is undeclared by me.

"And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undeclared by me.

"And what is declared by me? 'This is stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is declared by me. And why are they declared by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are declared by me.

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared."

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So, turning back to bhavanga-citta for a moment, it was pointed out by Tilt and RobertK in one of the topics linked to, that vinnana is a synonym for citta. Yet, the treatment of vinnana in the suttas is as explained by Walpola Rahula...

The Buddha declared in unequivocal terms that consciousness depends on
matter, sensation, perception and mental formations, and that it cannot exist
independently from them
. He says: 'Consciousness may exist having matter as it
means, matter as its object, matter as its support, and seeking delight it may grow,
increase and develop; or consciousness may exist having sensation as it means… or
perception as it means… or mental formation as it means, mental formation as its
object, mental formation as its support, and seeking delight it may grow, increase
and develop.

Yet, the purpoted "bhavanga-citta" does precisely that, exists as a consciousness independently of the six sense-bases. It's "object" is translated roughly as "lifeforce", but I challenge anyone to define this "lifeforce" in accord with The All of the Sabba Sutta. Of course it can't be done, because it is a metaphysical doctrine, proposing and propping up the speculative belief in the objective "existence" of consciousness. This would appear to be why the Abhidhammists felt the need to "plug" the gaps in sutta definined consciousness with bhavanga-cittas... namely because they take consciousness to be "real", and its disappearance is tantamount to destruction/annihilation. Scary stuff...

Nanananda, Heretic Sage interviews, pt 3 wrote:“It’s a pity that many Bud­dhists still can­not accept that the goal of this prac­tice is the ces­sa­tion of viññāṇa."

As an alternative to all this metaphysics, realism and notions of existence and non-existence, there is, for anyone interested, the radical Buddhadhamma.

SN 12.15: Kaccayanagotta Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.


"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

Hopefully the irony of bhavanga, as a formulation of 'existence' is not lost on people.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:54 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

daverupa wrote:I don't see how these excerpts lend themselves to one citta at a time. They don't lend themselves to an interpretation of multiple parallel cittas, either. Differentiating cittas in this way is itself an abhidhammic enterprise, and asking the question leads to a false dichotomy: one citta at a time, or many? It assumes one citta and another are differentiated, and that one had to cease in order for another to appear or that many arise and fall. It's event metaphysics, and it's the way the abhidhamma goes astray.

:goodpost:
Only if it were an accurate portrayal of the Abhidhamma (Pitaka texts), which it is not.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:13 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Only if it were an accurate portrayal of the Abhidhamma (Pitaka texts), which it is not.

Dave didn't say he was portraying the Abhidhamma Pitaka position... but Abhidhamma. In other words, the Abhidhamma we have today - as has evolved down to us over time. To quote Mike, "Some of us proceed from the working hypothesis that the abhidhamma and commentaries preserve (among other things) some extremely useful practical information gathered by practitioners from the time of the Buddha on."

By drawing this line in the sand between the Abhidhamma Pitaka and commentarial Abhidhamma, are you suggesting you don't share Mike's working hypothesis as it pertains to matters of Abhidhamma (including, in the context of this topic, bhavanga-citta)?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:09 am

Greetings Travis,

Travis wrote:It would be interesting to see what people who have a broader base (with the commentaries, etc.) would make of what [Ven. Nanananda] says, but that is a topic for another day... if anyone is game, that is. :thinking:

Perhaps start a topic in the Classical Theravada section asking for a Classical critique of what venerable Nanananda says?

Maybe even PM the following and invite them to respond...?

Alex123
phil
virgo
robertk

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Many meditatators confirm that with sufficient calm and mindfulness they confirm that the appears to only be one citta at a time.

If true, I bow to their lightning insight!
...
"Cittas arise and dissolve in a person at a tremendous rate of more than a thousand billion times per eye-wink, and there are about 250 eye-winks in a second. So the life-time of a citta (consciousness) is less than one-thousand billionth of a second."

Surely and exaggeration. So what?

Are you interested in discussing actual practise, or only in discussing theoretical concepts?

retrofuturist wrote:Firstly, I'll tell you where it leave me... It leaves me evaluating all of the above in accordance with the Teachers's instructions...
DN 16: Maha-parinibbana Sutta
... various familiar quotes ...

Yes, I'm familiar with those quotes. And, of course, I don't see the apparent contradictions you do.

:anjali:
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:25 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Are you interested in discussing actual practise, or only in discussing theoretical concepts?

I'm interested in demonstrating that if "theoretical concepts" have no relevance to "actual practise" (or to the matters of dukkha and nirodha) then they should be jettisoned, and not used as a medium by which to frame one's "actual practice".

If one's view is framed by metaphysical realist papanca, then one's "actual practice" will be metaphysical realist papanca too.

AN 10.103 wrote:"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success."

Sounds relevant to "practice" to me...

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:35 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Are you interested in discussing actual practise, or only in discussing theoretical concepts?

I'm interested in demonstrating that if "theoretical concepts" have no relevance to "actual practise" then they should be jettisoned, and not used as a medium by which to frame one's "actual practise".

If one's view is framed by metaphysical realist papanca, then one's "actual practice" will be metaphysical realist papanca too.

Sure.

But this "metaphysical realist papanca" seems to be something you are proliferating from your own theoretical conception about the Dhamma.

I wouldn't want to claim that my conception is any less proliferatory, of course... Proliferation is something we all need to work on.

:anjali:
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