In the absence of vinnana there is...?

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:08 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:But, leaving that aside, you have not addressed Tilt's question about how the person who wakes up actually does seem to bear some resemblance to the one who goes to sleep.

Because it is irrelevant in the context of a Dhamma.

I'm sure a biologist might have something to say about why the person didn't melt into a puddle whilst sleeping.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:14 am

retrofuturist wrote:. . . every school was dissatisfied with the Buddha's teaching (i.e. what he said - what he didn't) so went on to develop their own.
There is no justification for that claim.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:16 am

Greetings,

I'm really surprised that what I'm saying seems so radical to some people.

What exactly do you think the notions of "rise" and "fall" mean in the context of the Dhamma?

Rise means a phenomenon appears, fall/cease means it disappears. What disappears does not rise again. What appears does not need to be incessantly interrogated about what arose previously, or what happened the night before.

This is true of all phenomena (dhamma) - all formed dhammas are not-self, impermanent (!!!) and dukkha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:17 am

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:. . . every school was dissatisfied with the Buddha's teaching (i.e. what he said - what he didn't) so went on to develop their own.
There is no justification for that claim.

Find me a school that didn't develop (or evolve from a school that had) an Abhidhamma and I'll reconsider it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:18 am

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:But, leaving that aside, you have not addressed Tilt's question about how the person who wakes up actually does seem to bear some resemblance to the one who goes to sleep.

Because it is irrelevant in the context of a Dhamma.

Really? Without some continuity how did we learn or remember anything? What about all that stuff about causes and conditions?

Actually, on one level I agree. I've never found excessive intellectual analysis to be particularly useful to practice... But it's interesting to see how the different ancient and modern scholars tackle these things...

:anjali:
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:Rise means a phenomenon appears, fall/cease means it disappears. What disappears does not rise again. What appears does not need to be incessantly interrogated about what arose previously, or what happened the night before.

And where does that leave conditionality? Do these things rise and fall at random? That would contradict quite a few suttas...

:anjali:
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:22 am

Greetings Mike,

mikenz66 wrote:Really? Without some continuity how did we learn or remember anything?

How does the mechanism matter in the context of the Dhamma? Whatever the mechanism is, it is what it is. It cannot be changed by replacing avijja with vijja, or removing tanha etc.... thus, irrelevant in the context of the Dhamma.

mikenz66 wrote:What about all that stuff about causes and conditions?

What about what stuff? (sorry, I can't decipher exactly what you mean here)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:Except you the one who is positing no causal/conditioned connexion between the person who goes to sleep and the person who wakes up.

No I didn't. Who says a moment without consciousness/experience constitutes the complete and utter annihilation and eradication of all past memories, past kamma etc.? Not me.
Ah, so there is a process of continuity.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:26 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Rise means a phenomenon appears, fall/cease means it disappears. What disappears does not rise again. What appears does not need to be incessantly interrogated about what arose previously, or what happened the night before.

And where does that leave conditionality? Do these things rise and fall at random? That would contradict quite a few suttas...

No need for it to be random - the Buddha explains the conditionality throughout the Sutta Pitaka. One example...

MN 149: Maha-Salayatanika Sutta
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ka-e2.html

Another - http://what-buddha-said.net/drops/Diver ... ntacts.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:G
mikenz66 wrote:What about all that stuff about causes and conditions?

What about what stuff? (sorry, I can't decipher exactly what you mean here)

All the stuff about things arising due to causes and conditions in the suttas...
Material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, monks, are impermanent (anicca). Whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they, too, are impermanent. How monks, could aggregates arisen from what is impermanent, be permanent?
SN 22.7-9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el186.html

:anjali:
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Regarding continuity, the Dhamma is akaliko (timeless).
What does this mean?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:42 am

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:G
mikenz66 wrote:What about all that stuff about causes and conditions?

What about what stuff? (sorry, I can't decipher exactly what you mean here)

All the stuff about things arising due to causes and conditions in the suttas...
Material form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, monks, are impermanent (anicca). Whatever causes and conditions there are for the arising of these aggregates, they, too, are impermanent. How monks, could aggregates arisen from what is impermanent, be permanent?
SN 22.7-9 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el186.html

:anjali:
Mike

Of course. Yes, that is the Buddha's teaching.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:45 am

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Regarding continuity, the Dhamma is akaliko (timeless).
What does this mean?

It means that if there's any causality to be known, you can see it play out in the present.

In other words, if X arises dependent on Y, you can see it do so, presently, experientially, with mindful awareness.

In other words, if X ceases dependent on the cessation of Y, you can see it do so, presently, experientially, with mindful awareness.

In other words, you don't need to go searching in the past or future, making up theories of continuity of existence over time, in order to see the causality the Buddha actually taught.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:56 am

Greetings,

Apologies for putting an entire sutta down, but this is an example of how the Buddha actually taught....

Note the absence of any pursuit of "continuity"... rather, if anything, the Buddha is trying to dissolve the false sense of continuity, warning about the false path of "self-identification".

MN 148 Chachakka Sutta- The Six Sextets
Source: http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=M ... akka_Sutta
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks responded to him.

"Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, admirable in the end; I will expound the holy life both in its particulars & in its essence, entirely complete, surpassingly pure — in other words, the six sextets. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "The six internal media should be known. The six external media should be known. The six classes of consciousness should be known. The six classes of contact should be known. The six classes of feeling should be known. The six classes of craving should be known.

"'The six internal media should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The eye-medium, the ear-medium, the nose-medium, the tongue-medium, the body-medium, the intellect-medium. 'The six internal media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the first sextet.

"'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? The form-medium, the sound-medium, the aroma-medium, the flavor-medium, the tactile sensation-medium, the idea-medium. 'The six external media should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the second sextet.

"'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. 'The six classes of consciousness should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the third sextet.

"'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. 'The six classes of contact should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the fourth sextet.

"'The six classes of feeling should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. 'The six classes of feeling should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the fifth sextet.

"'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus was it said. In reference to what was it said? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises consciousness at the ear. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises consciousness at the nose. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises consciousness at the tongue. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises consciousness at the body. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition there is feeling. With feeling as a requisite condition there is craving. 'The six classes of craving should be known.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said. This is the sixth sextet.

"If anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the eye are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The eye is the self.' So the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Forms are the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self and forms are not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Consciousness at the eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Contact at the eye is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Feeling is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self. If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the eye is not-self, forms are not-self, consciousness at the eye is not-self, contact at the eye is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self.

"If anyone were to say, 'The ear is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...
"If anyone were to say, 'The nose is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...
"If anyone were to say, 'The tongue is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...
"If anyone were to say, 'The body is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable...
"If anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of the intellect are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'The intellect is the self.' So the intellect is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Ideas are the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self and ideas are not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Consciousness at the intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Contact at the intellect is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self, contact at the intellect is not-self. If anyone were to say, 'Feeling is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable... Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self, contact at the intellect is not-self, feeling is not self. If anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self,' that wouldn't be tenable. The arising & falling away of craving are discerned. And when its arising & falling away are discerned, it would follow that 'My self arises & falls away.' That's why it wouldn't be tenable if anyone were to say, 'Craving is the self.' Thus the intellect is not-self, ideas are not-self, consciousness at the intellect is not-self, contact at the intellect is not-self, feeling is not self, craving is not-self.

"This, monks, is the path of practice leading to self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'

"One assumes about the ear...
"One assumes about the nose...
"One assumes about the tongue...
"One assumes about the body...
"One assumes about the intellect that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' One assumes about ideas... One assumes about consciousness at the intellect... One assumes about contact at the intellect... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

"One assumes about the ear...
"One assumes about the nose...
"One assumes about the tongue...
"One assumes about the body...
"One assumes about the intellect that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about ideas... One assumes about consciousness at the intellect... One assumes about contact at the intellect... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed. That a person — without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible.

"Dependent on the ear & sounds...
"Dependent on the nose & aromas...
"Dependent on the tongue & flavors...
"Dependent on the body & tactile sensations...
"Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one relishes it, welcomes it, or remains fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats one's breast, becomes distraught, then one's resistance-obsession gets obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one does not discern, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, or escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession gets obsessed. That a person — without abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, without abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, without uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, without abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing isn't possible.

"Dependent on the eye & forms there arises consciousness at the eye. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible.

"Dependent on the ear & sounds...
"Dependent on the nose & aromas...
"Dependent on the tongue & flavors...
"Dependent on the body & tactile sensations...
"Dependent on the intellect & ideas there arises consciousness at the intellect. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there arises what is felt either as pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain. If, when touched by a feeling of pleasure, one does not relish it, welcome it, or remain fastened to it, then one's passion-obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of pain, one does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, beat one's breast or become distraught, then one's resistance obsession doesn't get obsessed. If, when touched by a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns, as it actually is present, the origination, passing away, allure, drawback, & escape from that feeling, then one's ignorance-obsession doesn't get obsessed. That a person — through abandoning passion-obsession with regard to a feeling of pleasure, through abolishing resistance-obsession with regard to a feeling of pain, through uprooting ignorance-obsession with regard to a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, through abandoning ignorance and giving rise to clear knowing — would put an end to suffering & stress in the here & now: such a thing is possible.

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the eye, disenchanted with forms, disenchanted with consciousness at the eye, disenchanted with contact at the eye, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with craving.
"He grows disenchanted with the ear...
"He grows disenchanted with the nose...
"He grows disenchanted with the tongue...
"He grows disenchanted with the body...
"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with craving. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of 60 monks, through no clinging, were fully released from fermentation/effluents.

Causality in the Dhamma (and the arising of the various consciousnesses) is as described above - not as the unnecessary and counter-productive maintenance of a pseudo-atta over time.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:not as the maintenance of a pseudo-atta over time.
So, who is doing that?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:09 am

Greetings Tilt,

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:not as the maintenance of a pseudo-atta over time.
So, who is doing that?


Anyone who does this...

This, monks, is the path of practice leading to self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'

"One assumes about the ear...
"One assumes about the nose...
"One assumes about the tongue...
"One assumes about the body...
"One assumes about the intellect that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' One assumes about ideas... One assumes about consciousness at the intellect... One assumes about contact at the intellect... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.'

"Now, this is the path of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification. One assumes about the eye that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about forms... One assumes about consciousness at the eye... One assumes about contact at the eye... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

"One assumes about the ear...
"One assumes about the nose...
"One assumes about the tongue...
"One assumes about the body...
"One assumes about the intellect that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.' One assumes about ideas... One assumes about consciousness at the intellect... One assumes about contact at the intellect... One assumes about feeling... One assumes about craving that 'This is not me, this is not my self, this is not what I am.'

"I am different this morning, compared to when I went to sleep last night" is I-making (self-identification)
"I am the same this morning as when I went to sleep last night" is I-making (self-identification)
"I am a product of causes and conditions" is I-making (self-identification)
"I am sustained by bhavanga-citta when I sleep" is I-making (self-identification)

Looking for continuity of sankhata dhamma where the Buddha did not teach it is I-making.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby Ben » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:10 am

WHAT??
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:11 am

Greetings Ben,

:hello:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:18 am

retrofuturist wrote:"I am different this morning, compared to when I went to sleep last night" is I-making (self-identification)
"I am the same this morning as when I went to sleep last night" is I-making (self-identification)
"I am a product of causes and conditions" is I-making (self-identification)

Looking for continuity of sankhata dhamma where the Buddha did not teach it is I-making.
Except the reality is until we are wake, we are going "I-make," but we can also understand that and deal with it in terms of the Dhamma, understanding continuity in terms of paticcasamuppada, seeing the emptiness of the "I-making."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: In the absence of vinnana there is...?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:27 am

"I am sustained by bhavanga-citta when I sleep" is I-making (self-identification)
I see this got added on, and, of course, it really misses the point of the doctrine. And no one is going to think in those terms other than in a conventional sense understanding the limitations of language.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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