Any stream-enterer here?

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Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Sacha G » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:15 am

Hello
Would anyone here declare themselves a sotapanna (or stream enterer) or any near to it?
The definition of a stream enterer ranges from "one who has unshakable faith in the 3 gems" to "one who has had direct experience of nibbâna". Ceasing with cling to rules and observances is also a characteristic of the stream-enterer, as is right view, which means direct understing of dependent origination (not an easy task it seems).
:coffee:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:24 am

Though this threrad starts out as a discussion of jhana claims, it goes into a lengthy discussion of ariya claims. You might want to take a look at it:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=8963&start=0
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Viscid » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:10 am

I find the sotapanna classifiction rather elitist. With it, Theravadins separate people into categories.. people who have attained stream-entry being more 'important' than normal folk. While I see the desire to at least recognize and understand the event for oneself, announcing such a thing only evokes the ire of others, and if you see yourself as having achieved this accomplishment, you'd perhaps see yourself as being more important.
Last edited by Viscid on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby cooran » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:17 am

Hello Sacha,

If five people announced in this thread that, yes, they were stream-enterers - how would you know if they were telling the truth, deluded, having a joke, or lying?

with metta
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby cooran » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:21 am

Hello Sacha, all,

Some readings, click on the link below:

Better than ruling the world or going to heaven: SN 55.1, Dhp 178
Six rewards of ~: AN 6.97
Upon ~, one does away with a vast amount of suffering: SN 13.1, SN 13.2, SN 13.8
Like a thirsty traveler looking into a well: SN 12.68
How to recognize a lay stream-winner: AN 5.179
The kind of conviction and discernment required to attain ~: SN 35.1-10
What it takes for a layperson to become a stream-winner: AN 10.92
How appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) leads to ~: SN 22.122
The four factors of ~ (and their variations): SN 55.30, SN 55.31, SN 55.32, SN 55.33, AN 10.92
How to recognize — and become — a person of integrity: MN 110
Why doubt does not arise in a stream-winner: AN 7.51
The teaching that led Ven. Ananda to ~: SN 22.83
"'When you know for yourselves...': The Authenticity of the Pali Suttas" (Thanissaro)
"The Way to Stream-entry" (Study Guide)
"Stream-entry and After" (Study Guide)
"Merit" (Study Guide)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... tml#stream

with metta
Chris
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... tml#stream
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:24 am

Greetings,

Better than that, there's 3 arahants here...

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7412

:buddha2: :buddha2: :buddha2:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:28 am

Four.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Sacha G » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:03 am

Hi thanks for the links.
As for myself I appreciate people calling themselves stream-enterer, because it gives hope, but as long as their behaviour is in accordance with it. I tend to mistrust those who declare that you can act like a fool and have negative emotions and still be an ariya, even an arahant (as a certain D.I :popcorn: )
Sacha G
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http://dhamma.webnode.com
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby David2 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:25 am

Another question:
Does someone who is a stream-enterer always know that he/she is one?
Or are there many stream-enterers out there who don't know they are stream-enterers?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby daverupa » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:49 am

Image
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby David2 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:00 pm

:jumping:
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Ben » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:05 pm

The following, I believe, deserves a considered response.

David2 wrote:Another question:
Does someone who is a stream-enterer always know that he/she is one?
Or are there many stream-enterers out there who don't know they are stream-enterers?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby chownah » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:46 pm

Ok...I've considered the question and will respond.....there are some who believe that anyone who has entered the stream would certainly know about it because it is an obviously not normal and kind of earth shaking sort of experience........on the other hand there are those who believe that entering the stream is something that might happen in a subtle enough way that one might not know......and there are those who believe that while attaining stream entry might be a profound experience it could be that some might misinterpret the experience and not realize what it was.
Each of the believers have good arguements and it really seems to just boil down to personal views.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby daverupa » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:47 pm

It seems to me that a sotapanna might or might not know at the moment of attainment, but any reflexion any time afterward would reveal it.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Alexei » Thu Sep 29, 2011 2:32 pm

Since there is not any certain definition of stream-entering I don't see any possible way to know that it happened.
Do you see?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby meindzai » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:49 pm

Alexei wrote:Since there is not any certain definition of stream-entering


That is not the case:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/glossary.html#sotapanna
"A person who has abandoned the first three of the fetters that bind the mind to the cycle of rebirth (see saṃyojana) and has thus entered the "stream" flowing inexorably to nibbāna, ensuring that one will be reborn at most only seven more times, and only into human or higher realms. "


And from MN2

"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing."

I don't see any possible way to know that it happened.
Do you see?


Perhaps, but there is a definition which would make it clear that it has *not* happened. I have yet to meet a person that I would say has abandoned the three fetters.

Would they themselves know? Perhaps if in this lifetime they had had the *experience* of stream entry, they might know. But what about after rebirth? They have at most 7 lifetimes to go.

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Alexei » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:46 pm

Yes, I know about three fetters.
There is a lot of people who don't grasp at precepts & practices. Many don't have any doubts, especially folks at traditional buddhist countries.
Self-identity views (lack of regarding oneself as five khandhas) are more reliable, but how can one assess them?

So I said that I don't see a certain criterion for stream-entry.

meindzai wrote:I have yet to meet a person that I would say has abandoned the three fetters.

I think many members of this forum would say this in some degree.

meindzai wrote:but there is a definition which would make it clear that it has *not* happened.

Agree.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby m0rl0ck » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:25 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Four.

Last time i looked there were five.
Joshu was asked,
"When a man comes to you with nothing,
what would you say to him ?"
Joshu replied, "Throw it away!"
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:45 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Four.

Last time i looked there were five.
It was a false alarm. Four.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:30 pm

I stepped in a mud puddle this morning. Does that count for somethin?

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