Any stream-enterer here?

[tiltbillings]

I do agree that in an Arahant; greed, ignorance, and lust cease to exist. I do not believe that their entire lives are spent in one unending state of Final Gnosis.

The arahant simply, is is no longer conditioned by gread, hatred, and delusion. This not a matter of residing or not residing in some sort of "final gnosis."

[Pondera]

I do agree that in an Arahant; greed, ignorance, and lust cease to exist. I do not believe that their entire lives are spent in one unending state of Final Gnosis.

The arahant simply, is is no longer conditioned by gread, hatred, and delusion. This not a matter of residing or not residing in some sort of "final gnosis."

But of course. However, don't you think it is a "characteristic" of all Arahants that in their utter extinguishing of hatred, greed, and delusion, the Arahant has reached final knowledge and understood the faculty of being a "Final Knower"?

Isn't it impossible to do away with all of those unhealthy tendencies without having first reached the pan-ultimate knowledge of final release?

[Kenshou]

Calm your pondering for a second, mister ponderer. What Tilt has said is pretty well to the point. There is no other "pan-ultimate knowledge of final release" that is necessary.

[Pondera]

Calm your pondering for a second, mister ponderer. What Tilt has said is pretty well to the point. There is no other "pan-ultimate knowledge of final release" that is necessary.

Says who!?

[Pondera]

But seriously, Final Knowledge is necessary for the abandonment of the three poisons. If you'd rather use a different word, you can say Final Knowledge comes along with the total abandonment of all attachments. They are one and the same. The difference is that one can be free of anger, greed, and delusion but not be in the state of Final Knowledge. The other thing is one cannot be totally free of anger, greed, and delusion without having first realized Final Knowledge. This is why. In the realization of final knowledge one experiences the total cessation of perception and feeling through not clinging to anything. It is ones capacity to let go of perception and feelings which enables a person to enjoy the freedom of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation or mental attachment. A true Arahant, a person truly free of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation can only be "truly free" if that person is able to let go of the mental requisite which conditions the existence or uprising or subsistence or continued ontological being of perception and feeling. Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

-Ponderá

[Kenshou]

Says who!?

These quotes do, I think.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p152056" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, I disagree that an arahant necessarily experiences something akin to the cessation of perception and feeling, but in light of that view I understand why you've been saying what you've been saying. I don't have the energy to get into that particular debate, again, so that's all.

[kirk5a]

Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

Is there some actual sutta support for this? It doesn't do anyone any favors to just sorta logically conclude this sort of stuff.

[daverupa]

But seriously, [1] Final Knowledge is necessary for the abandonment of the three poisons. If you'd rather use a different word, you can say Final Knowledge comes along with the total abandonment of all attachments. They are one and the same. The difference is that one can be free of anger, greed, and delusion but not be in the state of Final Knowledge. The other thing is one cannot be totally free of anger, greed, and delusion without having first realized Final Knowledge. This is why. [2] In the realization of final knowledge one experiences the total cessation of perception and feeling through not clinging to anything. It is ones capacity to let go of perception and feelings which enables a person to enjoy the freedom of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation or mental attachment. [3] A true Arahant, a person truly free of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation can only be "truly free" if that person is able to let go of the mental requisite which conditions the existence or uprising or subsistence or continued ontological being of perception and feeling. Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

1. Final knowledge isn't something because it must be knowledge of. The cessation of greed/hatred/delusion occurs, then upon reflexion this is known - so knowledge comes after the event. You seem to go back and forth with this, indicated by italics and underlining.

2. The cessation of perception & feeling is a meditative attainment wholly unrelated to nibbana - we know this since one can attain nibbana with only rupajhana.

3. Since a false arahant isn't an arahant, it's meaningless to specify "true arahant", a specification which is indicative of confused thinking.

The rest of the quoted portion further showcases the confusion over these points.

[Pondera]

Says who!?

These quotes do, I think.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p152056" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyway, I disagree that an arahant necessarily experiences something akin to the cessation of perception and feeling, but in light of that view I understand why you've been saying what you've been saying. I don't have the energy to get into that particular debate, again, so that's all.

Yes. Like defeating a dead horse. Thanks for the link. Ha. You...it just goes back to another post on this thread. Fair enough. You know something I don't. Okay. But even tiltbillings says, quote: "If one is not awakened, attained bodhi, one is not an arahant."

...and then the quotes on the destruction of greed, hate, delusion and so on follow.

[tiltbillings]

. . . .

As you say, you do have a serious problem with making things way more complicated than they need to be.

[Pondera]

Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

Is there some actual sutta support for this? It doesn't do anyone any favors to just sorta logically conclude this sort of stuff.

Ha. Yes.

“Discipline is for the purpose of restraint, restraint is for the purpose of nonremorse,
non-remorse is for the purpose of gladdening, gladdening is for the
purpose of happiness, happiness is for the purpose of tranquillity, tranquillity is
for the purpose of bliss, bliss is for the purpose of concentration, concentration is
for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is
for the purpose of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed], fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the purpose
of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging. Talk
has that purpose, counsel has that purpose, support has that purpose, giving ear
has that purpose, that is to say, the liberation of the mind through not clinging”
(Vin V 164).

Notice "dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed]".

And that "knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging."

Hence the extinction of craving, in other words the extinction of sensual lusts, aversions, and delusions occur through knowledge and vision of deliverance.

[kirk5a]

Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

Is there some actual sutta support for this? It doesn't do anyone any favors to just sorta logically conclude this sort of stuff.

Ha. Yes.

“Discipline is for the purpose of restraint, restraint is for the purpose of nonremorse,
non-remorse is for the purpose of gladdening, gladdening is for the
purpose of happiness, happiness is for the purpose of tranquillity, tranquillity is
for the purpose of bliss, bliss is for the purpose of concentration, concentration is
for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is
for the purpose of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed], fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the purpose
of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging. Talk
has that purpose, counsel has that purpose, support has that purpose, giving ear
has that purpose, that is to say, the liberation of the mind through not clinging”
(Vin V 164).

Notice "dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed]".

And that "knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging."

Hence the extinction of craving, in other words the extinction of sensual lusts, aversions, and delusions occur through knowledge and vision of deliverance.

I asked if there was sutta support for your claims regarding the cessation of feeling and perception. It's not mentioned at all in these quotes.

[Pondera]

1. Final knowledge isn't something because it must be knowledge of. The cessation of greed/hatred/delusion occurs, then upon reflexion this is known - so knowledge comes after the event. You seem to go back and forth with this, indicated by italics and underlining.

2. The cessation of perception & feeling is a meditative attainment wholly unrelated to nibbana - we know this since one can attain nibbana with only rupajhana.

3. Since a false arahant isn't an arahant, it's meaningless to specify "true arahant", a specification which is indicative of confused thinking.

The rest of the quoted portion further showcases the confusion over these points.

True; meaning true in the highest way. "The truest test of a persons' intelligence is whether or not he can adapt to the various meanings that words tend to infer upon their sentences depending on the context in which they are put."

Rupajhana? Meaning "Material Jhana"? Is this correct. Please explain how the material jhanas are the only way one can attain Nibbana. And help me to understand what Nibbana it is you understand which has nothing to do with the cessation of perception and feeling. The cessation of perception and feeling is[/is] nirvana.

Indicated by the Path of Purity Chapter 16. Verse 1.

There are 22 faculties, including "I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown-faculty", final knowledge faculty, and final knower faculty.

If you cannot get passed the wording in order to understand that the final knower and the final knowledge are nothing but the very same thing, then what can I do for you? Nothing.

[Pondera]

. . . .

As you say, you do have a serious problem with making things way more complicated than they need to be.

I didn't say that! I said I have a knack for making things overcomplicated. And even I didn't say that. Another person did. I simply agreed with that person. But just so you're not putting words into my mouth, I'll agree with you as well. I have a serious problem with making things way more complicated than they need to be. My knack has turned into a serious problem. This is getting complicated.

[Pondera]

I asked if there was sutta support for your claims regarding the cessation of feeling and perception. It's not mentioned at all in these quotes.

Sorry. My bad. It's all right here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 60#p152056