Any stream-enterer here?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Sacha G
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Any stream-enterer here?

Post by Sacha G »

Hello
Would anyone here declare themselves a sotapanna (or stream enterer) or any near to it?
The definition of a stream enterer ranges from "one who has unshakable faith in the 3 gems" to "one who has had direct experience of nibbâna". Ceasing with cling to rules and observances is also a characteristic of the stream-enterer, as is right view, which means direct understing of dependent origination (not an easy task it seems).
:coffee:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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tiltbillings
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by tiltbillings »

Though this threrad starts out as a discussion of jhana claims, it goes into a lengthy discussion of ariya claims. You might want to take a look at it:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 63&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Viscid
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by Viscid »

I find the sotapanna classifiction rather elitist. With it, Theravadins separate people into categories.. people who have attained stream-entry being more 'important' than normal folk. While I see the desire to at least recognize and understand the event for oneself, announcing such a thing only evokes the ire of others, and if you see yourself as having achieved this accomplishment, you'd perhaps see yourself as being more important.
Last edited by Viscid on Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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cooran
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by cooran »

Hello Sacha,

If five people announced in this thread that, yes, they were stream-enterers - how would you know if they were telling the truth, deluded, having a joke, or lying?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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cooran
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by cooran »

Hello Sacha, all,

Some readings, click on the link below:

Better than ruling the world or going to heaven: SN 55.1, Dhp 178
Six rewards of ~: AN 6.97
Upon ~, one does away with a vast amount of suffering: SN 13.1, SN 13.2, SN 13.8
Like a thirsty traveler looking into a well: SN 12.68
How to recognize a lay stream-winner: AN 5.179
The kind of conviction and discernment required to attain ~: SN 35.1-10
What it takes for a layperson to become a stream-winner: AN 10.92
How appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) leads to ~: SN 22.122
The four factors of ~ (and their variations): SN 55.30, SN 55.31, SN 55.32, SN 55.33, AN 10.92
How to recognize — and become — a person of integrity: MN 110
Why doubt does not arise in a stream-winner: AN 7.51
The teaching that led Ven. Ananda to ~: SN 22.83
"'When you know for yourselves...': The Authenticity of the Pali Suttas" (Thanissaro)
"The Way to Stream-entry" (Study Guide)
"Stream-entry and After" (Study Guide)
"Merit" (Study Guide)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... tml#stream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... tml#stream" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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retrofuturist
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Better than that, there's 3 arahants here...

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7412" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:buddha2: :buddha2: :buddha2:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by tiltbillings »

Four.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sacha G
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by Sacha G »

Hi thanks for the links.
As for myself I appreciate people calling themselves stream-enterer, because it gives hope, but as long as their behaviour is in accordance with it. I tend to mistrust those who declare that you can act like a fool and have negative emotions and still be an ariya, even an arahant (as a certain D.I :popcorn: )
Sacha G
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
David2
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by David2 »

Another question:
Does someone who is a stream-enterer always know that he/she is one?
Or are there many stream-enterers out there who don't know they are stream-enterers?
daverupa
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by daverupa »

Image
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
David2
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by David2 »

:jumping:
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Ben
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by Ben »

The following, I believe, deserves a considered response.
David2 wrote:Another question:
Does someone who is a stream-enterer always know that he/she is one?
Or are there many stream-enterers out there who don't know they are stream-enterers?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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chownah
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by chownah »

Ok...I've considered the question and will respond.....there are some who believe that anyone who has entered the stream would certainly know about it because it is an obviously not normal and kind of earth shaking sort of experience........on the other hand there are those who believe that entering the stream is something that might happen in a subtle enough way that one might not know......and there are those who believe that while attaining stream entry might be a profound experience it could be that some might misinterpret the experience and not realize what it was.
Each of the believers have good arguements and it really seems to just boil down to personal views.
chownah
daverupa
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by daverupa »

It seems to me that a sotapanna might or might not know at the moment of attainment, but any reflexion any time afterward would reveal it.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Alexei
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Post by Alexei »

Since there is not any certain definition of stream-entering I don't see any possible way to know that it happened.
Do you see?
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