Any stream-enterer here?

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:09 pm

daverupa wrote:The quote here misuses the word "infer", which is terribly ironic; likely the word "impute" is meant. The quote is also fairly obtuse; do you mean to say that the truest test of intelligence is the degree to which words are understood?


If anything, the word I meant to use was "confer", not "impute". The irony here is that you know I meant "impute" when I used "infer", yet you deny the meaning of the sentence. But wait. The sentence is obtuse. Like an angel. How ironic. This is grammar and spelling, not religion!

Do I mean to say that the truest test of intelligence is the degree to which words are understood? No. Come on. Obviously not. I mean that if you fool me once, shame on..., ...me. If you fool me twice, shame on....If you fool me once, you ain't gonna fool me again!

daverupa wrote:I never said they were the only way, simply that they were sufficient, in contradistinction to your claim about the cessation of perception & feeling being required. It seems you were unable, in this instance, to adapt to the particular words I used. I once read a quote about this sort of thing, somewhere...


You read it in my post! That was my quote!!! When I see an "only" in a sentence I think "if and only if", not "if and that will do for that". Anyhow.

daverupa wrote:False.


Then what is Nirvana, if not the cessation of perception and feeling? I know you can very swiftly find a sweet textual reference for how I am wrong and what nirvana actually is (or if you don't prefer saying the word "is" in the same sentence as "nirvana"...please just tell me what the suttas contradicts this!)

daverupa wrote:This sentence dangles between two paragraph breaks, so I'm not sure what this reference is intended to support.


It's intended to support everything that follows the two paragraph breaks! No links. No.

daverupa wrote:Sutta references, please.
:heart:


Path of Purity. Chapter 16. Verse 1. Quoted from the Abhidhammapitaka. I don't know where. Quote:

THE FACULTIES AND TRUTHS
(Indriya-sacca-niddesa)
[A. DESCRIPTION OF THE FACULTIES]
1. [491] The “faculties” listed next to the elements (XIV.32) are the twenty-two
faculties, namely, eye faculty, ear faculty, nose faculty, tongue faculty, body faculty,
mind faculty, femininity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, [bodily] pleasure
faculty, [bodily] pain faculty, [mental] joy faculty, [mental] grief faculty, equanimity
faculty, faith faculty, energy faculty, mindfulness faculty, concentration faculty,
understanding faculty, “I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown” faculty, final knowledge
faculty, final-knower faculty.

22 phenomenological faculties exist according to the Abhidhamma. Two of these are the final knowledge faculty and the final knower faculty. "Final" means; the end, the highest, the very end, there is no higher. "Knowledge" refers to what one knows in that state. "Final Knower" means; me, you, them, us, they, everyone, the "I" for which there is no further "I", the "I" for which no other "I" can be proclaimed, the indestructible "I", the "I" which exists outside the "I" which exists outside final knowledge, i.e.) the Final Knower. Something real. Nirvana.

Thus, Final Knowledge and The Final Knower are two phenomenological faculties belonging to one Knower. He who knows what he knows, and he who is what he knows. Thence, no difference exists between that which is finally known and he who is knowing that which is finally known. The two are one and the same. It is cessation of perception and feeling, the complete extinction of craving due to not clinging to anything and in particular -consciousness; Nirvana.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:22 pm

daverupa wrote:
1. Final knowledge isn't something because it must be knowledge of. The cessation of greed/hatred/delusion occurs, then upon reflexion this is known - so knowledge comes after the event. You seem to go back and forth with this, indicated by italics and underlining.

2. The cessation of perception & feeling is a meditative attainment wholly unrelated to nibbana - we know this since one can attain nibbana with only rupajhana.

3. Since a false arahant isn't an arahant, it's meaningless to specify "true arahant", a specification which is indicative of confused thinking.

The rest of the quoted portion further showcases the confusion over these points.


Ohhhhh-kay. So. You're saying Nirvana can be attained/obtained with only rupajhana. See. I read (past-tense) "only with", which, unlike certain sentences that mean the same thing irregardless of what words are used or how they are arranged, gives the statement you made a very particular grammatical feature that means something entirely different, when inverted by an haphazardly rushed reader. Okay. I get it. Okay. WHAT!? Sincerely. What does this mean? The state of nibbana is attainable inside rupajhana? Which rupajhana! Either I'm pondering now. Or I'm learning something new. Nirvana is simply happiness?

Text Reference, please.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby kirk5a » Sun Oct 09, 2011 4:06 pm

Pondera wrote:Text Reference, please.

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
...
"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

(Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby manas » Mon Oct 10, 2011 12:08 am

Since this topic was about stream-entry, I thought it might be a good place to share a musing I've had lately. Maybe one of the things that actually blocks us from attaining it, is if we entertain a preconception (or to be more blunt, a fantasy) about either what the initial experience will be like, or what the state of mind will be like afterwards. Lately I've been trying to let go of such things (I noticed both of these speculations in myself). I've realized that the important thing in any case is to practise to the best of one's ability, stream-enterer or not. As for the experience of it, my only guess now is that it will be something we don't expect, and not what we think. Because, how could an unenlightened mind possibly comprehend an enlightened state (of any level)?

NB: as I said, I'm sharing a personal musing here and I don't claim to represent the POV of sutta, although I would be interested to hear what sutta has to say about the issue of 'not trying to imagine, visualize or conceptualize enlightenment experiences in advance'!

:smile:
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:32 am

manasikara wrote:Since this topic was about stream-entry, I thought it might be a good place to share a musing I've had lately. Maybe one of the things that actually blocks us from attaining it, is if we entertain a preconception (or to be more blunt, a fantasy) about either what the initial experience will be like, or what the state of mind will be like afterwards. Lately I've been trying to let go of such things (I noticed both of these speculations in myself). I've realized that the important thing in any case is to practise to the best of one's ability, stream-enterer or not. As for the experience of it, my only guess now is that it will be something we don't expect, and not what we think. Because, how could an unenlightened mind possibly comprehend an enlightened state (of any level)?

NB: as I said, I'm sharing a personal musing here and I don't claim to represent the POV of sutta, although I would be interested to hear what sutta has to say about the issue of 'not trying to imagine, visualize or conceptualize enlightenment experiences in advance'!

:smile:

I think this is a good point.....can their be a reason for fabaricating views about these things which is not involved with clinging?...I think not. I think that you are falling into this trap yourself when you assert that "my only guess now is that it will be something we don't expect, and not what we think. " as this is a fabricated fantasy of the experience....... and also if you think that it will be something totally unexpected then perhaps it will be that there really isn't a big noticeable change at all between the before and after state....seems that most people expect some big "grand opening" kind of event....
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:04 pm

kirk5a wrote:
"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? There is the case where a monk, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
...
"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters[1] — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

(Similarly with the second, third, and fourth jhana.)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html[/quote]

Very interesting. Thank you. I apologize for the broken link. It was in fact only a link back to a post by tiltbillings which quoted several references to Nirvana, but also contained a personal opinion about the nature of Arahantship. The truth is, and I apologize once again, I posted it without thinking. Usually, when we read a link we don't expect it to bring us back to the same thread. Simply put, the feeling one gets when this happens is not unlike the same feeling I get when I manage to get into any conversation on this forum. (The feeling is that you have been insulted). I don't mind. It's better to admit that insults are not only fun, but also better than passive aggression. It's better than being on a site where no one is permitted to insult another! At least these insults come in very provocative and well worded sentences that contain both ambiguity and subtlety. But then again, I always assumed Buddhists were meant to be quite affectionate loving people. Perhaps not. Indeed not! Perhaps some of the time and then not at other times. It depends, I suppose. The link was sent to me. I found it insulting. I retaliated against the sender by sending it to you.

Nonetheless, it contains real information regarding the point of our talk. I believe the question was, "Who said that Arahants had to reach the state of the cessation of perception and feeling in order to be known as Arahants?" And the quotations indicate that no one did. But some people are of a different opinion.

As I speak, my proverbial foot is half way into my mouth and I am drawing it out ever so slightly to remark that I was incorrect, or must have been, or still am, -because -as your quote points out, the ending of the mental fermentations can occur in the first jhana alone. I did not know this. So before I even begin changing my view about what that first jhana might be (not that I understand it in any way), I have a few questions about the Buddha's previous teachers.

"Staying right there, he reaches ending of the mental fermentations." How should this be interpreted regarding the life story of the Buddha? He studied under Alara Kalama and then Udaka Ramaputta and understood the state of Nothingness and the state of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception. Then his search led him to extreme asceticism. Finally, as the legend goes, he recalled a time in his youth where he spontaneously entered the first jhana. And thus the man decided that perhaps this way was the route towards ultimate freedom.

So, rupajhana is a doorway to Nirvana. I'm thinking about this, thinking if rupajhana leads to Nirvana, then why not arupajhana? Why did Buddha say to himself that the State of Naught and the State of Neither Perception nor Non-Perception were incomplete answers to the problem he faced? Because, if you consider the suttas from a purely analytical point of view there are eight. And each seems to become more subtle and peacful than the previous one. So if the attainment of the first jhana is enough to bring an end to the mental fermentations, why isn't the attainment of the seventh or eighth jhana also enough to bring an end to the mental fermentations?

Also what is the interpretation for the suffix "putta"? Sariputta, Ramaputta,...?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:13 pm

I understand the meaning of the suffix "putta" in at least one other language. It appears as "Madre Putta", "Sala Putta" and so on. However this is not Pail, I speak of. I wonder, again, what is the understanding of this suffix, if one should even exist linguistically?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:18 pm

Oh Pondera, I just decided to save a few minutes by linking another post because what Tilt had already quoted amounted to pretty much the same kind of thing that I was going to fish up. That was the only reason, please don't take it so personally.

You must understand that emotions and attitudes do not communicate well, at all, over this medium. If you think you're being insulted, you really probably aren't... unless it's really blatant.

And putta means "son" here, so Ramaputta is "son of Rama", and so on.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:19 pm

Okay. Thank you. I was probably being too sensitive. I've never managed to get the hang of forum etiquette, in the sense that we sometimes can carry on a conversation with someone touching all manner of points, while our tongues are wagging too and fro. Meaning that, talk and such is probably more a social way of expressing things; like getting stress out, or having a laugh. I'm not saying it can't be done across forums. I don't mean there aren't people who've not managed to find a very good way to have a constructive discussion across forum guidelines and setups. But, how could anyone really? Funny that sarcasm seems to come across so well in the context of a forum. Whereas a very honest feeling in the form of words is hardly ever accepted at face-value. For which, I suppose, one could chalk up my overreaction to your threading of a link as being a variation on the "did you read the first sentence? (duh)" sort of insult.

Still, you come across bickering and word-wars more often than you do a flow of assortive comments (though I shouldn't say such things about this forum; being new as I am). Buddhism on a whole seems to be a subject that most people have already made their minds up about. Newcomers usually don't gain much when the entire bunch is already well versed in most of the stuff that can be read. And owing to Buddhism's singular coherency as a thought system there isn't much to argue about that hasn't already been set aside as "not worth arguing about" anyhow.

With, at least, one exception. Jhana and nirvana. I have a simple interest in this issue. The suttas support the fact that nirvana can be obtained in the first jhana. If I had ever experienced the first jhana I would more than likely not have to ask how it is possible. It simply confounds my understanding of Unbinding.

As the case may be, and so on and so forth, it seems that you really do know something I don't which is, as it so happens, what davearupa quoted -or correction, mentioned; which was that nirvana need not be categorized as the cessation of feeling and perception (a sentiment I gather you agree with) because, as was verified by Kirk 5a, a person can "end the mental fermentations" by "staying there" -in the first jhana, long enough i.e.) nirvana can be attained "with only" the rupa jhanas (which, by and by as the days go on, I would have -more correctly, said; with the rupa jhanas alone (if but for the sake of clarity only) -or "alone" perhaps. Never mind. But...

It seems to me that the whole Buddhist doctrine has a short version and a long version. The short version is that anyone can obtain Nirvana by reaching this goal of the first jhana. And the long version seems to be that one can ascend the first jhana into the second, all the way up to the final jhana. Then we come across this Nirodha thing. The situation where upon entering Neither Perception Nor-Non Perception a person enters the complete cessation of perception and feeling. Is the problem that Nirvana is rather the complete extinguishing of craving, not perception and feeling?

I suppose that "state" of ceased perception and feeling is but a state. To, alternatively, extinguish all cravings must be the release one feels. Maybe Total Unbinding and Mental Fermentations are different things. I associate Total Unbinding with the state that a person enters when consciousness no longer associates ones mind with one's sense input.

Mental Fermentations, if I know anything about them, are deep rooted emotional mental sheeths of quick silver, foaming in the heart for the sake of the being there.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:26 pm

And "putta" "son of-...". Thank you. This one: "hijo de puta" means "son of -" a something, which I do not wish to translate. But it's Spanish. Any-who-
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:16 pm

Pondera wrote:It seems to me that the whole Buddhist doctrine has a short version and a long version. The short version is that anyone can obtain Nirvana by reaching this goal of the first jhana. And the long version seems to be that one can ascend the first jhana into the second, all the way up to the final jhana. Then we come across this Nirodha thing. The situation where upon entering Neither Perception Nor-Non Perception a person enters the complete cessation of perception and feeling.
Jhana is a (or -the-, depending on who you ask) fulfillment of right concentration. The main point of which is, to allow one to come to know "how things really are". To quote the Upanisa sutta, to pick one at random, "knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite". But it's not that reaching the 1st jhana guarantees this, it's still a matter of gradual development. A hypothetical person might reach arahantship based on the 1st jhana, or might reach further degrees of concentration before that.

Cessation of perception and feeling is a bit of a special case, being the end of the line in terms of tranquility, but it's never stated to be required for release as far as I know. Not even jhana per say is explicitly said to be obligatory either as far as I know (could be wrong), but it's obviously quite heavily encouraged. I think what's really important is the development of the 7 factors of awakening, and if you look at those side by side with the descriptions of the progression of jhana there's a lot in common, probably not by coincidence.

Is the problem that Nirvana is rather the complete extinguishing of craving, not perception and feeling?
This is one of the core things you were getting a few gripes about, I think, yeah. And you're right, I do agree with that. To try put it short, I'll grab a snippet from MN 140: ...one is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, one is not agitated. Unagitated, one is totally unbound right within. One discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

Not grasping results in the end of agitation (to choose one term for it), which is to be nibbana'd. You could put it a lot of other ways but that's the gist of it. Why? Well, to grab another sutta reference, SN 22.2, slightly paraphrased: 'When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications... for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that consciousness (etc.), there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. To go to the Upanisa sutta gain, "release has dispassion as its prerequisite", dispassion being the opposite of passion, of course.

And being "free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving" comes about through the ending of the mental fermentations or asavas, which is also framed as the 10 fetters or the old greed/hatred/delusion formation. Which occurs through seeing things as they are, as unsatisfactory, unreliable/impermanent and not-self, which comes about through training in mindfulness and concentration (coming around to the begging of this long post), which is dependent on right effort, morality and all the other bits of the noble 8fold path...

So maybe now it is more clear where I'm coming from. I may have previously assumed you're more familiar with these concepts than you are, and maybe now I'm assuming that you're less familiar than you actually are, but oh well. Longest post I've bothered to make in ages, hopefully it is constructive, I am now going to step away from the computer.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby daverupa » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:53 am

Excellent post, Kenshou. Only one point of clarification:

Kenshou wrote:Not even jhana per say is explicitly said to be obligatory either as far as I know (could be wrong)


(2) All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhānas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhāna before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhānas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship.


source
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Zom » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:43 pm

Returning back to topic:

[Mahanama]: "When an individual possesses four things, Godha, I recognize him as a stream-enterer... What four? Here, Godha, a noble disciple possesses confirmed confidence in the Budhha... Dhamma... Sangha... He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken.. leading to concentration. When [he] possesses these four things, I recognize him as a stream-enterer...

[Godha]: "Wait, Mahanama! Wait, Mahanama! The Blessed One alone would know whether or not he possesses these things."


SN 55.23

:buddha1:
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby PeterB » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:52 pm

Well obviously that must be true, and authentic, and properly translated, and must accurately represent the thought of the Buddha because after all... it is reproduced in blue.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:24 am

Kenshou wrote:Jhana is a (or -the-, depending on who you ask) fulfillment of right concentration. The main point of which is, to allow one to come to know "how things really are". To quote the Upanisa sutta, to pick one at random, "knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite". But it's not that reaching the 1st jhana guarantees this, it's still a matter of gradual development. A hypothetical person might reach arahantship based on the 1st jhana, or might reach further degrees of concentration before that.


How do the skandhas fit into this? With concentration, do the skandhas becomes more visible to the psyche? If form, feeling, perception, impulses, and consciousness "lean" on each other, as they are supposed to -according to various texts, is it a property of "focus" that with intense concentration comes an awareness of the way in which the skandhas cling?

Kenshou wrote:Cessation of perception and feeling is a bit of a special case, being the end of the line in terms of tranquility, but it's never stated to be required for release as far as I know. Not even jhana per say is explicitly said to be obligatory either as far as I know (could be wrong), but it's obviously quite heavily encouraged. I think what's really important is the development of the 7 factors of awakening, and if you look at those side by side with the descriptions of the progression of jhana there's a lot in common, probably not by coincidence.


In my experience I simply found that concentration allowed me to recognized the nature of the attachment of the skandhas, even to a point where they, figuratively, vibrated in conjunction with one another.

They could not be separated in reality. But their connection, which was a false one, or rather a very mechanical one, could be separated in the understanding of the mind. This created an even more real feeling of being. It also entailed some other powers.

At a point, my concentration became so strong that, because my consciousness was now so entirely devoted to unveiling the nature of my skandhas, it also happened to unveil the nature of other aggregates around me. The focus that revealed my form as it stood to my feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness seemed to extend far beyond my own body. I was younger than I am now when all of this was happening. It was a one time event also.

When a person you know walks out of a convenience store and remarks upon meeting your conscious focus that "Whoa. What just happened. I feel like I'm on drugs or something. Is that you? That's you isn't it? What the hell!", all you can really say is, "Yeah. I'm pretty powerful in a way right now." So, my apologies to the season of Autumn back then in 2005, but I really never meant to leave you in the season of spring for two years. I grew up in a small town. I changed that town a lot. Sounds crazy, but the leaves stayed unusually green that year and the next one. My body and the body of all my friends, even my darker friends had a white hue, almost as if we were all glowing. My bones were light as well. I'd be lying if I didn't believe whole hearted that it was entirely my doing. Crazy, I know. But these things do happen.

Kenshou wrote:Not grasping results in the end of agitation (to choose one term for it), which is to be nibbana'd. You could put it a lot of other ways but that's the gist of it. Why? Well, to grab another sutta reference, SN 22.2, slightly paraphrased: 'When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications... for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that consciousness (etc.), there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. To go to the Upanisa sutta gain, "release has dispassion as its prerequisite", dispassion being the opposite of passion, of course.

And being "free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving" comes about through the ending of the mental fermentations or asavas, which is also framed as the 10 fetters or the old greed/hatred/delusion formation. Which occurs through seeing things as they are, as unsatisfactory, unreliable/impermanent and not-self, which comes about through training in mindfulness and concentration (coming around to the begging of this long post), which is dependent on right effort, morality and all the other bits of the noble 8fold path...


I had a copy of The Path of Purification close by my side back in those days. The formula to extinguish of craving was slightly different. Dispassion, I think this is paragraph 32 in the first chapter on virtue, was a prerequisite for "the fading away of greed", then came "knowledge and vision of deliverance", then "the complete extinction of craving". But, ultimately, disspassion, once arrived at would lead to the extinction of craving. I don't recall where I saw it in the text, but as far as "concentration" was for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, that knowledge and vision was -in fact, the correct knowledge and vision of "the manner of consciousness".

So, concentration in fact revealed the manner of consciousness, which is, ultimately "to cling". Hence knowledge and vision of deliverance meant realizing that once consciousness had ceased to cling, there would be release. With the fading away of greed, the mental existence of consciousness slips away into knowledge and vision of deliverance. I had brought it very far to this point. I was reaching the end. Now, very suddenly I had nothing left to concentrate on. The ego was gone. I was hearing things around me, but they were just as intelligible as a language totally foreign to me. In other words I perceived those things and didn't perceive them simultaneously. I neither perceived nor did not perceive.

It was when that same element of consciousness which tied my perceptive faculties to the out pour of sounds, failed to create further bonds, that my body all at once went without feeling. I didn't become numb. The best way to explain it would be to say that the bonds which held my karmic formation together were severed when consciousness left me. However awareness never ceased for a moment. All I realized then was a state of eternity. Time seems to be the measure of change and change does not seem to register without the influx of perceptions. So the bare bones of existence situated itself in my boundless mind through pure infinite potential.

The Dalai Lama was even in town on this bizarre full moon night. That was the only time I would ever feel that. I did hear my self utter the words, "On this very night I shall become an Arahant." Something similar to "The holy life is fulfilled, etc." But I don't put too much weight into those words.

Kenshou wrote:So maybe now it is more clear where I'm coming from. I may have previously assumed you're more familiar with these concepts than you are, and maybe now I'm assuming that you're less familiar than you actually are, but oh well. Longest post I've bothered to make in ages, hopefully it is constructive, I am now going to step away from the computer.


I'm familiar with it. I've "had that". My experience was a total shot in the dark, far removed from any organized path or routine. I simply followed a lead to the very end and at the very end I reached that state. So it was over. Now life goes on.

The details aren't so important to me. I just find it interesting that I still have no idea of what a jhana really is. I had this feeling that it was no different than any one of the four divine abodes, which I believed masqueraded as bodily systems with words that invoked ideas of interpersonal relationships.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Aloka » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:04 am

With regard to the OP of this topic, I find these comments from Ajahn Sumedho helpful:


"The Four Stages (stream-entry, once-return, non-return and arahant) as described in the Pali Canon are reflective teachings aimed at getting perspective on our own experience. They are not positions. It isn’t a question of thinking in terms of becoming a stream-enterer or becoming an arahant, or wondering, ‘Have I attained stream-entry yet? Am I a non-returner? Will I ever become an arahant?’ This is the worldly mind grasping the concepts."

continued :

http://buddhismnow.wordpress.com/2010/10/20/the-four-stages-by-ajahn-sumedho/


with kind wishes,

Aloka
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby PeterB » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:55 am

:goodpost:

And THAT was Luang Por being as expansive as he gets on the matter.... :lol:
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby chownah » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:16 pm

PeterB,
I don't understand why you are referencing Luang Por when the post you are referring to has text by Ajahn Somedho....will you explain?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Nicro » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:23 pm

chownah wrote:PeterB,
I don't understand why you are referencing Luang Por when the post you are referring to has text by Ajahn Somedho....will you explain?
chownah


Luang Por Sumedho?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby PeterB » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:21 pm

Nicro wrote:
chownah wrote:PeterB,
I don't understand why you are referencing Luang Por when the post you are referring to has text by Ajahn Somedho....will you explain?
chownah


Luang Por Sumedho?

Indeed....
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