Any stream-enterer here?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:22 pm

Pondera wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Four.


Maybe five. Maybe six. Depends. One question:

If you have the cessation of perception and feeling,
Textual support for this statement, please.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby daverupa » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:40 pm

Pondera wrote:the cessation of perception and feeling
the state of total unbinding


Is it accurate to equate these two states? I'm fairly certain they are not one and the same...
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Zom » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:01 pm

Is it accurate to equate these two states? I'm fairly certain they are not one and the same...


I'm sure they are same.

Though there are no direct statements in nikayas about that, there are numerous hints.
For example, where "sanna vedayita nirodha" is described as a "highest possible happiness" or like a place that is impossible to transcend.
There is a sutta in MN where after 4th arupajhana, just on a place where sanna vedayita nirodha usually goes, there goes nibbana.
Plus, one attaining this "ayatana" cannot reborn there after death, so this is not a sansara level (though previous attainment IS sansara level)

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:28 pm

Zom wrote:
Is it accurate to equate these two states? I'm fairly certain they are not one and the same...


I'm sure they are same.
No, they are not the same. "Sanna vedayita nirodha" aka nirodha-samāpatti is a meditative state that anāgāmi or arahant who already mastered the 8 jhānas can attain. It is not a requirement to the attainment of awakening, which means it is not equivalent to awakening. See nirodha-samāpatti.

Also, well before the level of nirodha-samāpatti one can experience meditative states where there is no perceptions or feelings. They are nifty, but they are nothing special.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Zom » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:54 pm

No, they are not the same. "Sanna vedayita nirodha" aka nirodha-samāpatti is a meditative state that anāgāmi or arahant who already mastered the 8 jhānas can attain.


Said by Commy, but not by suttas ,)

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:05 pm

Zom wrote:
No, they are not the same. "Sanna vedayita nirodha" aka nirodha-samāpatti is a meditative state that anāgāmi or arahant who already mastered the 8 jhānas can attain.


Said by Commy, but not by suttas ,)
You have not shown that the suttas support your position, and in this the commentaries look to be spot on..

The paññā-vimutti arahant does not attain nirodha-samāpatti.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Zom » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:59 am

The paññā-vimutti arahant does not attain nirodha-samāpatti.


He does.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:20 am

Zom wrote:
The paññā-vimutti arahant does not attain nirodha-samāpatti.


He does.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Not necessarily, according to MN 70:

A monk may not have reached in his own person the 8 liberations, but through his wisdom the cankers have come to extinction in him. Such a person is called wisdom-liberated" (paññā-vimutta). Also: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.070.than.html.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby BuddhaKurt » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:28 am

Ben wrote:
BuddhaKurt wrote:I believe in God and praise the Buddha's teachings which I practiced for about 15 years and became a Buddha myself. I've had several experiences with God and I'll mention just one here.


Hi Ben. Congratulations! You exposed me for what I really am, open and truthful. I have nothing to hide. No clinging or attachments that keep the mind enslaved. And magnificent work researching other sites that I have been on! If you want to write a book about me, you can keep all of the profits! My 4 year old Grandson can't throw a temper tantrum as well as you so you scored big on that too!
You have also exposed some truths about yourself also, so maybe you'll gain some valuable insight. May I remind you of the rules of conduct when posting: "1. Be nice to each other

Basic interpersonal decency must be observed within this forum. Feel free to attack the ideas of others, but never attack them personally, either directly or by inference. This need for interpersonal decency extends also to those who may have originally conceived the ideas being debated (e.g. the Buddha, commentators, bhikkhus, scholars)." So Ben... how is your practice of loving kindness coming along??

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby PeterB » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:31 am

Your defensiveness shows you to be as deeply deluded as we all assume you are. You are wasting your own time and everyone elses. Go away and grow the flip up.

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby BuddhaKurt » Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:31 am

Viscid wrote:
Aloka wrote:You can read about how Kurt "attained the ultimate goal of enlightenment " in the column on the right hand side of the welcome page on his website:

http://www.happiness-for-sale.com/


:)


Geez. I'd say we're exploiting Kurt's delusion by entertaining ourselves in our mockery of it, but he's charging $5 for his insights so I suppose it's fair game..


It's probably not right to promote someone's website on this site, and please don't misrepresent it if if you choose to. The info is FREE unless you want a pdf version sent via email attachment.

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Aloka » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:06 am

Hi Kurt,

Your website is displayed under your avatar - so its there for anyone to check if they want to.

.

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Zom » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:07 am

Not necessarily, according to MN 70:


Yes, because there are 2 methods to reach nibbana (suttas generally say about a) 4th jhana + getting last 6th abhinna in it or - b) by reaching nirodha-samapatti after mastering all 8 jhanas). But this is big offtopic actually ,)

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby BuddhaKurt » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:09 am

daverupa wrote:Also, when someone comes along saying things about the TRUE YOU, it's worth laying the smack-down on it right away. It goes directly against "sabbe dhamma anatta", a central component of the Dhamma.


This was not said here. It was on my website which I never mentioned here.

Those of you who have attacked me should be ashamed to call yourself Buddhists (assuming you do). You should ask yourselves these questions: Am I behaving like an adult? Am I practicing loving kindness? Am I clinging to rules and observances? Do I have ill will or uncertainty (hindrances)? Am I open and honest or keep secrets and tell lies? Do my actions incur bad karma? Am I open minded or do I have restrictive thinking, clinging to my beliefs? Do I have a big ego and always have to be right and prove my point? Do I understand the Dhamma or am I just an expert at locating data, copying and pasting? Am I hanging out on a Buddhist website to placate my ego or am I trying to learn and grow from interaction with others, on the path to end suffering? Am I perfect or can I admit to having faults? Do I put others down to build myself up? Am I fearful of stepping out of my comfort zone? Do I fear what others might know that I don't?

A note to all my attackers: I've come to this website with this selfless intention of helping others on the path. I've used some different terminology and words but the meaning is the same. If you understand the teaching and are not just going through the motions accumulating info to remember, you would see that. The purpose of the free selfless info on my website is for the benefit of people who would be receptive if it is not connected with a religion. Everything that I say is not to be taken on faith and can be verified by personal experience. The focus should be on yourself, not me. I will not be returning here for any more abuse. It would have been nice to have me around to give assurance that you are not just wasting your time, and there is a way to end suffering in this lifetime. So you have deprived others of that benefit. You gained something for yourselves though: you have incurred bad karma for yourselves with your thoughts and actions of ill will, so be observant of that and maybe you can learn and grow from it, and not pawn it off saying, "He made me feel this way." Have a nice day!

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:20 am

I've come to this website with this selfless intention of helping others on the path
That really might be the problem.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Sacha G » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:14 pm

Hi
I think it's dangerous to critisize somebody who says they are an ariya, unless you can be 100% sure they are not. Because, if they are not, the critics is not of much profit. But if, per chance, they are, it's a lot of negative kamma I suppose... :shrug:
However in the case of Kurt, I recognize that I can hardly imagine an arahant acting this way ("I wanted to be nice, but you didn't listen to me, so keep with your bad kamma"), however it doesn't sound absurd that a stream-enterer would do so, since all the fetters haven't been removed.
:coffee:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby PeterB » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:23 pm

Sacha G wrote:Hi
I think it's dangerous to critisize somebody who says they are an ariya, unless you can be 100% sure they are not. Because, if they are not, the critics is not of much profit. But if, per chance, they are, it's a lot of negative kamma I suppose... :shrug:
However in the case of Kurt, I recognize that I can hardly imagine an arahant acting this way ("I wanted to be nice, but you didn't listen to me, so keep with your bad kamma"), however it doesn't sound absurd that a stream-enterer would do so, since all the fetters haven't been removed.
:coffee:

Oh come on Sacha... :lol: Even if I didnt think that the whole " ariya " business was not a later interpolation, which I do...
The mans claims are so hollow they are funny... :lol:
We are not required to park our brains outside the door in order to be seen as " non-judgemental ".....

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Sacha G » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:37 pm

Hello Peter
I'm not as sure as you are about the Buddha not teaching about levels of liberation.
You find the same descriptions in the northern canon (agamas), so it means it was "invented" before the schism of schools, maybe less than 200 after the Buddha's parinibbana maybe.
What's more, the theory of the levels of liberation fits well with the list of the fetters. What's more, the term, ariya is found everywhere in the canon, even in the definition of what the (true) sangha is.
It can seem odd that the Buddha taught in such a "prize-winning" way, but often it is seen that the Buddha insists on the respect one ought to have for the Noble persons, the true Brahmans etc...in a society where respect and honour was proportonal to the cast you belonged to, it's not improbable that the buddha recast in some way the mentality and put honour and respect where they should belong, i.e, to those with a true attainment.
Finally, if it was invented by monks, I don't know why you have suttas declaring lay people to have reached stream entry etc...
But that's not the debate here. Maybe it's the opportunity for a new thread. :juggling:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby PeterB » Sat Oct 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Not really worth a new thread Sacha...those that buy into the whole mechanistic idea of status posited on a defined number of remaining births will continue to buy into it...and those for whom the whole kit and caboodle seems entirely at odds with the Buddhas basic world view will continue to not buy into it.
Been there, done that. Refused the tee shirt.... :smile:

On the subject of the thread a quotation from Ajahn Sumedho might be apropos.." dont be so open minded that your brain falls out "...

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Zom » Sat Oct 01, 2011 2:56 pm

Even if I didnt think that the whole " ariya " business was not a later interpolation, which I do...


This is an extreme view, just like - "Buddha was just a clever brahman who found a new way how to make money on stupid religious population" :|


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