Any stream-enterer here?

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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:26 pm

Pondera wrote:I do agree that in an Arahant; greed, ignorance, and lust cease to exist. I do not believe that their entire lives are spent in one unending state of Final Gnosis.
The arahant simply, is is no longer conditioned by gread, hatred, and delusion. This not a matter of residing or not residing in some sort of "final gnosis."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Pondera wrote:I do agree that in an Arahant; greed, ignorance, and lust cease to exist. I do not believe that their entire lives are spent in one unending state of Final Gnosis.
The arahant simply, is is no longer conditioned by gread, hatred, and delusion. This not a matter of residing or not residing in some sort of "final gnosis."


But of course. However, don't you think it is a "characteristic" of all Arahants that in their utter extinguishing of hatred, greed, and delusion, the Arahant has reached final knowledge and understood the faculty of being a "Final Knower"?

Isn't it impossible to do away with all of those unhealthy tendencies without having first reached the pan-ultimate knowledge of final release?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:16 pm

Calm your pondering for a second, mister ponderer. What Tilt has said is pretty well to the point. There is no other "pan-ultimate knowledge of final release" that is necessary.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:29 pm

Kenshou wrote:Calm your pondering for a second, mister ponderer. What Tilt has said is pretty well to the point. There is no other "pan-ultimate knowledge of final release" that is necessary.


Says who!? :)
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:38 pm

But seriously, Final Knowledge is necessary for the abandonment of the three poisons. If you'd rather use a different word, you can say Final Knowledge comes along with the total abandonment of all attachments. They are one and the same. The difference is that one can be free of anger, greed, and delusion but not be in the state of Final Knowledge. The other thing is one cannot be totally free of anger, greed, and delusion without having first realized Final Knowledge. This is why. In the realization of final knowledge one experiences the total cessation of perception and feeling through not clinging to anything. It is ones capacity to let go of perception and feelings which enables a person to enjoy the freedom of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation or mental attachment. A true Arahant, a person truly free of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation can only be "truly free" if that person is able to let go of the mental requisite which conditions the existence or uprising or subsistence or continued ontological being of perception and feeling. Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

-Ponderá
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:52 pm

Pondera wrote:Says who!?

These quotes do, I think.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=9879&start=60#p152056

Anyway, I disagree that an arahant necessarily experiences something akin to the cessation of perception and feeling, but in light of that view I understand why you've been saying what you've been saying. I don't have the energy to get into that particular debate, again, so that's all.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:06 pm

Pondera wrote:Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

Is there some actual sutta support for this? It doesn't do anyone any favors to just sorta logically conclude this sort of stuff.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby daverupa » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:51 pm

Pondera wrote:But seriously, [1] Final Knowledge is necessary for the abandonment of the three poisons. If you'd rather use a different word, you can say Final Knowledge comes along with the total abandonment of all attachments. They are one and the same. The difference is that one can be free of anger, greed, and delusion but not be in the state of Final Knowledge. The other thing is one cannot be totally free of anger, greed, and delusion without having first realized Final Knowledge. This is why. [2] In the realization of final knowledge one experiences the total cessation of perception and feeling through not clinging to anything. It is ones capacity to let go of perception and feelings which enables a person to enjoy the freedom of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation or mental attachment. [3] A true Arahant, a person truly free of sensual lust, aversion, and preoccupation can only be "truly free" if that person is able to let go of the mental requisite which conditions the existence or uprising or subsistence or continued ontological being of perception and feeling. Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.


1. Final knowledge isn't something because it must be knowledge of. The cessation of greed/hatred/delusion occurs, then upon reflexion this is known - so knowledge comes after the event. You seem to go back and forth with this, indicated by italics and underlining.

2. The cessation of perception & feeling is a meditative attainment wholly unrelated to nibbana - we know this since one can attain nibbana with only rupajhana.

3. Since a false arahant isn't an arahant, it's meaningless to specify "true arahant", a specification which is indicative of confused thinking.

The rest of the quoted portion further showcases the confusion over these points.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:07 pm

Kenshou wrote:
Pondera wrote:Says who!?

These quotes do, I think.

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p152056

Anyway, I disagree that an arahant necessarily experiences something akin to the cessation of perception and feeling, but in light of that view I understand why you've been saying what you've been saying. I don't have the energy to get into that particular debate, again, so that's all.


Yes. Like defeating a dead horse. Thanks for the link. Ha. You...it just goes back to another post on this thread. Fair enough. You know something I don't. Okay. But even tiltbillings says, quote: "If one is not awakened, attained bodhi, one is not an arahant."

...and then the quotes on the destruction of greed, hate, delusion and so on follow.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:15 pm

Pondera wrote: . . . .
As you say, you do have a serious problem with making things way more complicated than they need to be.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:23 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Pondera wrote:Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

Is there some actual sutta support for this? It doesn't do anyone any favors to just sorta logically conclude this sort of stuff.


Ha. Yes.

“Discipline is for the purpose of restraint, restraint is for the purpose of nonremorse,
non-remorse is for the purpose of gladdening, gladdening is for the
purpose of happiness, happiness is for the purpose of tranquillity, tranquillity is
for the purpose of bliss, bliss is for the purpose of concentration, concentration is
for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is
for the purpose of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed], fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the purpose
of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging. Talk
has that purpose, counsel has that purpose, support has that purpose, giving ear
has that purpose, that is to say, the liberation of the mind through not clinging”
(Vin V 164).

Notice "dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed]".

And that "knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging."

Hence the extinction of craving, in other words the extinction of sensual lusts, aversions, and delusions occur through knowledge and vision of deliverance.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:35 pm

Pondera wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
Pondera wrote:Hence, the cessation of perception and feeling is the essence of non attachment to physical objects as they arise in the form of perceptions and feelings. Thence, an Arahant must know this knowledge, but is not necessarily a part of it for his entire existence, though having gone through it his bonds to sensual lust, aversion, and mental preoccupation are cut-off.

Is there some actual sutta support for this? It doesn't do anyone any favors to just sorta logically conclude this sort of stuff.


Ha. Yes.

“Discipline is for the purpose of restraint, restraint is for the purpose of nonremorse,
non-remorse is for the purpose of gladdening, gladdening is for the
purpose of happiness, happiness is for the purpose of tranquillity, tranquillity is
for the purpose of bliss, bliss is for the purpose of concentration, concentration is
for the purpose of correct knowledge and vision, correct knowledge and vision is
for the purpose of dispassion, dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed], fading away is for the purpose of deliverance, deliverance is for the purpose
of knowledge and vision of deliverance, knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging. Talk
has that purpose, counsel has that purpose, support has that purpose, giving ear
has that purpose, that is to say, the liberation of the mind through not clinging”
(Vin V 164).

Notice "dispassion is for the purpose of fading away [of
greed]".

And that "knowledge and vision of deliverance is
for the purpose of complete extinction [of craving, etc.] through not clinging."

Hence the extinction of craving, in other words the extinction of sensual lusts, aversions, and delusions occur through knowledge and vision of deliverance.

I asked if there was sutta support for your claims regarding the cessation of feeling and perception. It's not mentioned at all in these quotes.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:36 pm

daverupa wrote:
1. Final knowledge isn't something because it must be knowledge of. The cessation of greed/hatred/delusion occurs, then upon reflexion this is known - so knowledge comes after the event. You seem to go back and forth with this, indicated by italics and underlining.

2. The cessation of perception & feeling is a meditative attainment wholly unrelated to nibbana - we know this since one can attain nibbana with only rupajhana.

3. Since a false arahant isn't an arahant, it's meaningless to specify "true arahant", a specification which is indicative of confused thinking.

The rest of the quoted portion further showcases the confusion over these points.


True; meaning true in the highest way. "The truest test of a persons' intelligence is whether or not he can adapt to the various meanings that words tend to infer upon their sentences depending on the context in which they are put."

Rupajhana? Meaning "Material Jhana"? Is this correct. Please explain how the material jhanas are the only way one can attain Nibbana. And help me to understand what Nibbana it is you understand which has nothing to do with the cessation of perception and feeling. The cessation of perception and feeling [i]is[/is] nirvana.

Indicated by the Path of Purity Chapter 16. Verse 1.

There are 22 faculties, including "I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown-faculty", final knowledge faculty, and final knower faculty.

If you cannot get passed the wording in order to understand that the final knower and the final knowledge are nothing but the very same thing, then what can I do for you? Nothing.
Last edited by Pondera on Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:43 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Pondera wrote: . . . .
As you say, you do have a serious problem with making things way more complicated than they need to be.


I didn't say that! I said I have a knack for making things overcomplicated. And even I didn't say that. Another person did. I simply agreed with that person. But just so you're not putting words into my mouth, I'll agree with you as well. I have a serious problem with making things way more complicated than they need to be. My knack has turned into a serious problem. This is getting complicated.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:45 pm

kirk5a wrote: I asked if there was sutta support for your claims regarding the cessation of feeling and perception. It's not mentioned at all in these quotes.


Sorry. My bad. It's all right here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p152056
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby kirk5a » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:05 pm

Pondera wrote:
kirk5a wrote: I asked if there was sutta support for your claims regarding the cessation of feeling and perception. It's not mentioned at all in these quotes.


Sorry. My bad. It's all right here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p152056

Repair this link please.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:06 pm

Pondera wrote:...it just goes back to another post on this thread. Fair enough.
A post containing some actual references to some straightforward quotations, yes, not just someone's opinions.

You know something I don't.
There's not something that I'm holding back. I try to keep things simple when possible. And I think those quoted sutta passages say all that really needs to be said on the issue, so it's hard for me to give you a reply I think you'd be satisfied with since it kind of reduces down to "forget all that stuff you said, you don't need it".

But even tiltbillings says, quote: "If one is not awakened, attained bodhi, one is not an arahant."

...and then the quotes on the destruction of greed, hate, delusion and so on follow.
Yes, and we seem to differ when it gets down to the details of how that works. And I respond to that by saying, okay then, we don't have to agree, and I'm not going to start an argument over it.
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby daverupa » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:09 pm

Pondera wrote:True; meaning true in the highest way. "The truest test of a persons' intelligence is whether or not he can adapt to the various meanings that words tend to infer upon their sentences depending on the context in which they are put."


The quote here misuses the word "infer", which is terribly ironic; likely the word "impute" is meant. The quote is also fairly obtuse; do you mean to say that the truest test of intelligence is the degree to which words are understood?

Pondera wrote:Rupajhana? Meaning "Material Jhana"? Is this correct. Please explain how the material jhanas are the only way one can attain Nibbana.


I never said they were the only way, simply that they were sufficient, in contradistinction to your claim about the cessation of perception & feeling being required. It seems you were unable, in this instance, to adapt to the particular words I used. I once read a quote about this sort of thing, somewhere...

Pondera wrote:And help me to understand what Nibbana it is you understand which has nothing to do with the cessation of perception and feeling. The cessation of perception and feeling [i]is[/is] nirvana.


False.

Pondera wrote:Indicated by the Path of Purity Chapter 16. Verse 1.


This sentence dangles between two paragraph breaks, so I'm not sure what this reference is intended to support.

Pondera wrote:There are 22 faculties, including "I-shall-come-to-know-the-unknown-faculty", final knowledge faculty, and final knower faculty.

If you cannot get passed the wording in order to understand that the final knower and the final knowledge are nothing but the very same thing, then what can I do for you? Nothing.


Sutta references, please.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Pondera » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:27 pm

Kenshou wrote:
Pondera wrote:...it just goes back to another post on this thread. Fair enough.
A post containing some actual references to some straightforward quotations, yes, not just someone's opinions.

You know something I don't.
There's not something that I'm holding back. I try to keep things simple when possible. And I think those quoted sutta passages say all that really needs to be said on the issue, so it's hard for me to give you a reply I think you'd be satisfied with since it kind of reduces down to "forget all that stuff you said, you don't need it".

But even tiltbillings says, quote: "If one is not awakened, attained bodhi, one is not an arahant."

...and then the quotes on the destruction of greed, hate, delusion and so on follow.
Yes, and we seem to differ when it gets down to the details of how that works. And I respond to that by saying, okay then, we don't have to agree, and I'm not going to start an argument over it.


That's how I feel too. Why bother?
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Re: Any stream-enterer here?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:30 pm

That's why I didn't bother, see you later.
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