Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

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PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby PeterB » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:03 pm

Its the Avon Lady !

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Aloka
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby Aloka » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:11 pm

PeterB wrote:Its the Avon Lady !


Lol, you guessed, Peter ! :D

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pilgrim
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby pilgrim » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:14 pm

ancientbuddhism wrote:Debates like this cast Western Buddhists in an embarrassing light. Cultural Buddhists seem to either accept canonical rebirth and all the local underpinnings of mythos at face value, or they are openly skeptical, all without the condescension I have right-view and you don’t, and without the specious science of Mr. Stevenson to help support some dogma.

Indeed....for millenia, Buddhists practise the Dhamma for one purpose only, the ending of rebirth. It takes a Western Buddhist to turn the Dhamma into a feel good therapy.

PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby PeterB » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:28 pm

Really ? My understanding is that the purpose of the Dhamma is the ending of Dukkha. In whatever life.

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daverupa
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby daverupa » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:35 pm

kirk5a wrote:
daverupa wrote:There's only one section in the entirety of MN 9 that makes even an oblique reference to rebirth (24-27, from within 1-71), and the whole thing is couched within terms of alternative and equivalent ways of coming to Right View. The idea that rebirth is a necessary part of Right View is wholly incorrect.

Oh?
A2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no next world' is his wrong view.
...
B2. "Because there actually is the next world, the view of one who thinks, 'There is a next world' is his right view.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


MN 60 is preached to brahmin householders and incorporates rebirth as a component of right view based on this audience.

MN 9 is preached to bhikkhus who repeatedly ask Sariputta "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" and rebirth shows up after a number of other descriptions are explicated, and other descriptions without rebirth follow along, all of it summing Right View, whence the name of this Sutta.

In other words, MN 9 showcases that rebirth is one among many, and definitely not the only way, which is your claim. MN 60, your evidence for rebirth-as-required, rather showcases that the Buddha felt that these brahmin householders would benefit from having the rebirth assumption accepted for argument's sake as a way of setting up a version of Pascal's wager for them, the "safe bet" approach for which the Sutta was named.

daverupa wrote:The idea that rebirth is a necessary part of Right View is wholly incorrect.


Still standing.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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pilgrim
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby pilgrim » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:39 pm

PeterB wrote:Really ? My understanding is that the purpose of the Dhamma is the ending of Dukkha. In whatever life.

A case in point.... ;)

PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby PeterB » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:41 pm

Which means what exactly ?
The ending of Dukkha is relevant whether one takes a One Life or Three Lives model.
The ending of Rebirth only works with the latter.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:30 pm

Now this becoming another truth of rebirth thread, which was not part of the OP. Either keep the OP in mind, or take it to the "Great rebirth debate."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Mr Man
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby Mr Man » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:47 pm

pilgrim wrote:Indeed....for millenia, Buddhists practise the Dhamma for one purpose only, the ending of rebirth. It takes a Western Buddhist to turn the Dhamma into a feel good therapy.

?????

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Aloka
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby Aloka » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:06 pm

PeterB wrote:Really ? My understanding is that the purpose of the Dhamma is the ending of Dukkha. In whatever life.


My understanding also.

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pilgrim
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby pilgrim » Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:09 am

PeterB wrote:Which means what exactly ?
The ending of Dukkha is relevant whether one takes a One Life or Three Lives model.
The ending of Rebirth only works with the latter.

My apologies if my posting lacked clarity. I was referring to ancientbuddhism's remark above. If you ask a "cultural buddhist" the purpose of practice, his answer would quite likely be in the perspective of "not to be reborn in samsara again". Hardly anyone would say, "Oh I have too much suffering in this life", which would more likely be the answer from a western buddhist. ....<my perception>

PeterB
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Re: Ian Stevenson, Rebirth, and the Suttas

Postby PeterB » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:09 am

pilgrim wrote:
PeterB wrote:Which means what exactly ?
The ending of Dukkha is relevant whether one takes a One Life or Three Lives model.
The ending of Rebirth only works with the latter.

My apologies if my posting lacked clarity. I was referring to ancientbuddhism's remark above. If you ask a "cultural buddhist" the purpose of practice, his answer would quite likely be in the perspective of "not to be reborn in samsara again". Hardly anyone would say, "Oh I have too much suffering in this life", which would more likely be the answer from a western buddhist. ....<my perception>

If true, and there may be some truth in it I think that difference might be explainable in terms of the prevailing economic conditions of the last 500 years.


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