Sutta about the ordination of women?

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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby robertk » Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:36 am

BlueLotus wrote:
Fede wrote:The Buddha wasn't sexist.
He was a considerate individual who realised the hearts and minds of people. His subsequent followers were sexist.
I've posted this before, and it's worth repeating.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 66,0,0,1,0


Thanks a lot Fede. This article is truly enlightening. :smile: I highly recommend everyone should read it if you haven't already. Thanks again

:anjali:

That article is truly a joke. I recommend it as an example of the lowest level of scholarship.
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby BlueLotus » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:08 pm

robertk wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Fede wrote:The Buddha wasn't sexist.
He was a considerate individual who realised the hearts and minds of people. His subsequent followers were sexist.
I've posted this before, and it's worth repeating.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 66,0,0,1,0


Thanks a lot Fede. This article is truly enlightening. :smile: I highly recommend everyone should read it if you haven't already. Thanks again

:anjali:

That article is truly a joke. I recommend it as an example of the lowest level of scholarship.


Why do you think so? I think the article is really good and personally I think the bhikkuni vinaya rules are not set by the Buddha.
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby Fede » Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:17 pm

robertk wrote:
BlueLotus wrote:
Fede wrote:The Buddha wasn't sexist.
He was a considerate individual who realised the hearts and minds of people. His subsequent followers were sexist.
I've posted this before, and it's worth repeating.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 66,0,0,1,0


Thanks a lot Fede. This article is truly enlightening. :smile: I highly recommend everyone should read it if you haven't already. Thanks again

:anjali:

That article is truly a joke. I recommend it as an example of the lowest level of scholarship.


And that would be....because?

How about coming up with some constructive evidence to counter-act the article?
Although if it's just your opinion, many thanks for that. :smile:
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Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:21 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Venerable Mettānando's interpretation of the Garudhamma is at odds with that of Ajahn Thanissaro. There is nothing there about bhikkhunis not being allowed to teach the Dhamma to bhikkhus.
Conclusions that rely on a mistranslation are not valid.
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:21 pm

BlueLotus wrote: personally I think the bhikkuni vinaya rules are not set by the Buddha.
Dunno, but if those rules were not given by the Buddha, then there had to have been a wholesale conspiracy almost immediately after the death of the Buddha to significantly alter the Vinaya involving virtually all of the monks.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby Fede » Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:55 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
BlueLotus wrote: personally I think the bhikkuni vinaya rules are not set by the Buddha.
Dunno, but if those rules were not given by the Buddha, then there had to have been a wholesale conspiracy almost immediately after the death of the Buddha to significantly alter the Vinaya involving virtually all of the monks.

Which actually, given the time, and the attachment and the misguided conviction of believing that such a thing could not be possibly be permitted, is not beyond the realms of probability.

Misogyny is the world's oldest prejudice, according to the late Jack Holland, and he recounts the historical systematic and relentless suppression of women throughout the ages, by different factions such as Governments and religious bodies.
When you consider that even in the so-called affluent and advanced west, women are consistently paid less than their male counterparts, and that of 30,000 people losing their jobs in the UK this past year, 26,000 of them have been women - I really don't believe such a conspiracy to be out of the question.



http://www.amazon.com/Misogyny-Worlds-P ... 0786718234
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby Dan74 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:08 am

I always thought ours was not one of the religions of the book and Theravadins in particular often say that it is a faith based on reason rather than dogma.

If Bhikkhuni rules were given by the Buddha and we assume that the Buddha could do no wrong, the question still remains if they remain relevant and appropriate for our time.

Are these the rules that could be changed after his passing even according to what the Buddha reputedly said?
_/|\_
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby Gena1480 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:41 am

the Buddha says if women to follow the path of holy life
then the holy life will not last long.
he does not say that women should not follow the path of holy life
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby robertk » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:36 am

Fede wrote:How about coming up with some constructive evidence to counter-act the article?
Although if it's just your opinion, many thanks for that. :smile:

Yes it is just my opinion. i didnt want to add more but since you ask.
The evidence of this Mr. Mettanando is scurrilous (my opinion) . He says that if the Buddha set any of those weighty rules for nuns, or if he had said anything about using those rules as a dyke then the Buddha was a sexist. This he doesn't believe to be true so he searches for flimsy evidence and comes up with the idea that bhikkhuni werent allowed to teach monks (not true). Then he says that all evidence shows bhikkuni did most of the Dhamma teaching- what absolute nonsense - but I hope anyone can see it is irrelevant to his whole conspiracy theory that the later bhikkhu got together and placed these rules inside the sutta pitaka as a way to put their collective feet on the necks of the bhikkhuni.

I have no doubt that explaining this has no impact on you, simply because conspiracy theorists can always find reasons to belive in their current idea(check out the threads about people who believe it was bush who demolished the twin towers)/
Mettanando, Sujato and their ilk will always appeal to the people who feel they know the true Buddha mind, which by amazing coincidence, is always aligned directly with their own beliefs, and not with the Tipitika.
Like mrs caroline Rhys davids and her comments about monkish ideas coming into the Tipitaka (she didnt believe the buddha could have taught anatta), there will always be a stream of conspiracists, who grab the attention of the gullible....
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:51 am

Fede wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
BlueLotus wrote: personally I think the bhikkuni vinaya rules are not set by the Buddha.
Dunno, but if those rules were not given by the Buddha, then there had to have been a wholesale conspiracy almost immediately after the death of the Buddha to significantly alter the Vinaya involving virtually all of the monks.

Which actually, given the time, and the attachment and the misguided conviction of believing that such a thing could not be possibly be permitted, is not beyond the realms of probability.
I am not saying it is impossible, but more than doctrine, it was the Vinaya that defined the group. It was something that resisted change for that reason. Also, this conspiracy would have to have happened almost immediately after the Buddha's death before any sectarian division and before significant separations of distance. I do not think it is really meaningful or helpful to try to make the Buddha into a 21st Century man.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:34 am

robertk wrote:That article is truly a joke. I recommend it as an example of the lowest level of scholarship.


robertk wrote:The evidence of this Mr. Mettanando is scurrilous (my opinion) .


Although you may disagree with him, he actually is highly educated:

Mettanando Bhikkhu is a Thai Buddhist monk and a former physician. He studied at Chulalongkorn University, Oxford and Harvard, and received a PhD from Hamburg. He is special adviser on Buddhist affairs to the secretary-general of the World Conference of Religions for Peace.


Apparently he is an M.D. and a Ph.D. and earned those degrees at prestigious, accredited universities. Why would you call him Mr. and not Dr. or at least venerable?

The venerable Dr. might be incorrect on some of his views (in your opinion), but that doesn't remove any of his scholarly education degrees or titles, including venerable.
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby robertk » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:53 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
robertk wrote:That article is truly a joke. I recommend it as an example of the lowest level of scholarship.


robertk wrote:The evidence of this Mr. Mettanando is scurrilous (my opinion) .


Although you may disagree with him, he actually is highly educated:

Mettanando Bhikkhu is a Thai Buddhist monk and a former physician. He studied at Chulalongkorn University, Oxford and Harvard, and received a PhD from Hamburg. He is special adviser on Buddhist affairs to the secretary-general of the World Conference of Religions for Peace.


Apparently he is an M.D. and a Ph.D. and earned those degrees at prestigious, accredited universities. Why would you call him Mr. and not Dr. or at least venerable?

The venerable Dr. might be incorrect on some of his views (in your opinion), but that doesn't remove any of his scholarly education degrees or titles, including venerable.

I earned my Phd at a good uni too, does everyone want to start calling me Dr. robert on this list?

It would be inappropriate, I think, to call an ex-monk venerable.

Anyway I have no respect at all for this ex-venerable Dr.
He says the ancient Theravada bhikkhu were involved in a conspiracy of vast proportions to change the Tipitaka to suit their nefarious purposes. The Doctor is a defamer of the arahats, and a distorter of the teachings. He should be shunned and shamed at every opportunity, the man is a clown. (with all due respect to his academic titles of course). In my humble opinion .
Last edited by robertk on Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:56 am

robertk wrote: I earned my Phd at a good uni too, does everyone want to start calling me Dr. robert on this list?

It would be very inapproapriate , i think, to call and ex-monk venerable.


Okay, fair enough, I didn't know he was no longer a monk; the article was a few years back when he was a monk.

But Dr. Mettanando did not turn in his degrees with his robe.
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby daverupa » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:22 pm

Fede wrote:Misogyny is the world's oldest prejudice, according to the late Jack Holland, and he recounts the historical systematic and relentless suppression of women throughout the ages, by different factions such as Governments and religious bodies.
When you consider that even in the so-called affluent and advanced west, women are consistently paid less than their male counterparts, and that of 30,000 people losing their jobs in the UK this past year, 26,000 of them have been women - I really don't believe such a conspiracy to be out of the question.


I don't think a conspiracy such as this would have allowed the Therigatha. Also, in the Theragatha, a monk is depicted as awakening after hearing a nun teach Dhamma.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:23 pm

There's something I don't understand: why would the "conspiracy" have to be right after the Buddha's death and not centuries later?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:46 pm

daverupa wrote:
Fede wrote:Misogyny is the world's oldest prejudice, according to the late Jack Holland, and he recounts the historical systematic and relentless suppression of women throughout the ages, by different factions such as Governments and religious bodies.
When you consider that even in the so-called affluent and advanced west, women are consistently paid less than their male counterparts, and that of 30,000 people losing their jobs in the UK this past year, 26,000 of them have been women - I really don't believe such a conspiracy to be out of the question.


I don't think a conspiracy such as this would have allowed the Therigatha. Also, in the Theragatha, a monk is depicted as awakening after hearing a nun teach Dhamma.
Also, the Itivuttaka, which is traditionally held to have been recited by a slave woman.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:01 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:There's something I don't understand: why would the "conspiracy" have to be right after the Buddha's death and not centuries later?
Because within less the 100 years the divisions had already started and this story and the rules seems to be common to all the Mainstream schools of Indian Buddhism.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Sutta about the ordination of women?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:08 pm

Ah, I see. Thanks.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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