Rupa, Kaya & Practice

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Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby danieLion » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:06 am

For all practical purposes (mental cultivation, development, meditation, etc...) is there a difference between rupa and kaya?
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:13 am

Hi daneiLion,

You mean rūpa-kāya as opposed to nāma-kāya? Very crudely bodily vs mental?
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... #k%C4%81ya

The usual statement would be that there is a development of the knowledge that there are both aspects tied together. E.g intention generating movement is something that is emphasised by some teachers.

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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Oct 15, 2011 10:26 am

Greetings,

danieLion wrote:For all practical purposes (mental cultivation, development, meditation, etc...) is there a difference between rupa and kaya?

Yes. Kaya means body, whereas rupa means form.

Nama-rupa constitutes named forms, or if you prefer, forms conjoined with some 'meaning'.

Observing thusly, we can observe the emptiness of any meaning we associate with forms, and discern that they are merely formations (sankhara), rooted in avijja.

Seeing thusly, it is easier to relinquish attachment to any experienced consciousness, because one sees that all that perception of existence and any meaning associated with it, is just a product of the monkey-mind.

Image

That is vipassana - seeing dhammas as they truly are.

If you regarded nama-rupa as mano-kaya (mind and body) then discernment along those lines would not take place... incentive or cause to 'let go' would have to come from elsewhere (nevermind the quandry over what nirodha with respect to mano-kaya could well mean)

:meditate:

I believe that understanding paticca-samuppada is very important for mental cultivation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:20 pm

OK, here's a little more detail than I had time to assemble last night...

In the Suttas and Commentaries "kaya" can refer to either physical or mental "bodies":

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... #k%C4%81ya
Kāya: lit: accumulation: 'group', 'body', may either refer to the physical body rūpa-kāya or to the mental body nāma-kāya In the latter case it is either a collective name for the mental groups feeling, perception, mental constructions, consciousness; (see khandha) or merely for feeling, perception and a few of the mental constructions see: nāma e.g. in kāya-lahutā etc. cf. Tab. II.. kāya has this same meaning in the standard description of the 3rd absorption jhāna and he feels joy in his mind or his mental constitution kāya and e.g. Pug. 1-8 of the attainment of the 8 deliverances vimokkha, having attained the 8 deliverances in his mind, or his person kāya - kāya is also the 5th sense-organ, the body-organ; s. āyatana dhātu, indriya


As Retro says, crudely translating as "mind" and "body" could lead to an overly-mechanical interpretation, however the clear discerning of phenomena is the first insight knowledge:

Nāma-rūpa-pariccheda-ñāna "Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind"

Here is Mahasi Sayadaw's description, which is possible a bit technical.
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progres ... Analytical
Endowed with purification of mind and continuing the practice of noticing, the meditator now comes to know body-and-mind analytically as follows: "The rising (upward movement) of the abdomen is one process; the falling (downward movement) is another; sitting is another; touching is another," etc. In this way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily process that he notices. Further he realises: "The knowing of the rising movement is one process; the knowing of the falling movement is another." In that way he comes to know each mental act of noticing. Further he realises: "The rising movement is one process; the knowing of it is another. The falling movement is one process; the knowing of it is another," and so on. In that way he comes to know how to distinguish each bodily and mental process. All that knowledge comes from simply noticing, not from reasoning; that is to say, it is knowledge by direct experience arrived at by the mere act of noticing, and not knowledge derived from ratiocination.

Thus, when seeing a visual object with the eye, the meditator knows how to distinguish each single factor involved: "The eye is one; the visual object is another; seeing is another, and knowing it is another." The same manner applies in the case of the other sense functions.

For at the time, in each act of noticing, the meditator comes to know analytically the mental processes of noticing, and those of thinking and reflecting, knowing them for himself through direct knowledge by his experience thus: "They have the nature of going towards an object, inclining towards an object, cognizing an object." On the other hand, he knows analytically the material processes going on in the whole body — which are here described as "the rising and falling movements of the abdomen," "sitting," etc., knowing them thus: "These have not the nature of going or inclining towards an object, or of cognizing an object." Such knowing is called "knowing matter (or the body) by its manifestation of non-determining." For it is said in the Mula-Tika, the "Principal Sub-commentary" to the Abhidhamma Vibhanga: "In other words, 'non-determining' (as in the passage quoted) should be understood as having no faculty of cognizing an object."

Such knowledge as this, which analyses in each act of noticing both the bodily process noticed and the mental process engaged in noticing, according to their true essential nature, is called "analytical knowledge of body and mind."

When that knowledge has come to maturity, the meditator understands thus: "At the moment of breathing in, there is just the rising movement of the abdomen and the knowing of the movement, but there is no self besides; at the moment of breathing out, there is just the falling movement of the abdomen and the knowing of the movement, but there is no self besides." Understanding it thus in these and other instances, he knows and sees for himself by noticing thus: "There is here only that pair: a material process as object, and a mental process of knowing it; and it is to that pair alone that the terms of conventional usage 'being,' 'person' or 'soul,' 'I' or 'another,' 'man' or 'woman' refer. But apart from that dual process there is no separate person or being, I or another, man or woman."

This is called purification of view.

As Retro says, it's discernment of that emptiness that is the key attribute of this stage.

:anjali:
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:39 pm

Perhaps this is a little shorter and clearer...

Venerable Mahāsi Sayādaw
Practical Vipassanā Meditation Exercises
http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Vipassa ... ssana.html
The physical object of attention and the mental act of noting occur as a pair. There is in this occurrence no person or individual involved, only the physical object and the mental act of noting it, occurring in tandem. The meditator will, in time, actually and personally experience these occurrences. While noting the rising and falling of the abdomen one will come to distinguish the rising of the abdomen as physical phenomenon and the mental act of noting it as mental phenomenon; similarly with the falling of the abdomen. Thus the meditator will distinctly realise the simultaneous occurrence in pairs of these psycho-physical phenomena.

With every act of noting, the meditator will come to know clearly that there are only this material quality which is the object of awareness or attention and the mental quality that makes a note of it. This discriminating knowledge is called analytical knowledge of mind and matter (nāmarūpa-pariccheda-ñāna), which is the beginning of insight knowledge (vipassanā-ñāna). It is important to gain this knowledge correctly. This will be succeeded, as the meditator continues, by knowledge by discerning conditionality (paccaya-pariggaha-ñāna).

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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:17 pm

And a key Sutta about nama-rupa and Right View:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... l#namarupa
Mentality-Materiality

52. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.

53. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands mentality-materiality, the origin of mentality-materiality, the cessation of mentality-materiality, and the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality, in that way he is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma.

54. "And what is mentality-materiality, what is the origin of mentality-materiality, what is the cessation of mentality-materiality, what is the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality? Feeling, perception, volition, contact and attention — these are called mentality. The four great elements and the material form derived from the four great elements — these are called materiality. So this mentality and this materiality are what is called mentality-materiality. With the arising of consciousness there is the arising of mentality-materiality. With the cessation of consciousness there is the cessation of mentality-materiality. The way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.

55. "When a noble disciple has thus understood mentality-materiality, the origin of mentality-materiality, the cessation of mentality-materiality, and the way leading to the cessation of mentality-materiality... he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view... and has arrived at this true Dhamma."

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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby danieLion » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:02 am

In terms of anapanasati:

1) Is contemplation of the body (kayanupassani) contemplation of rupa-kaya as the physical body to the exclusion of rupa-kaya as the mental body?

2) Does kayanupassani include kaya as the 5th sense or body organ?

3) Is the difference between rupa & kaya absolute or do they share similarities? E.g., kaya via kayanupassani shares the property of corporeality/materiality with rupa as a khanda (but not as nama-rupa?).

Practically speaking, when I observe my corporeal body via kayanupassani it doesn't seem different to me from the material form of rupa-khanda.
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:53 am

Hi danieLion,

You're now confusing me. Kayanupassani in terms of anapanasati?

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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby daverupa » Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:09 am

danieLion wrote:For all practical purposes (mental cultivation, development, meditation, etc...) is there a difference between rupa and kaya?


Just throwing this out there; I'm not too committed to it yet:

Kaya is related to the six senses, rupa is related to the five aggregates, but worrying about how to reconcile the two schemas is to create an unnecessary stumbling block by missing the fact that it's a matter of one practice or another:

Kayanupassana as a practice is based around the salayatanas; here the word "kaya" means the groupings, whether of the five senses or the mental sixth (i.e. object/organ/vinnana taken as a "group" - as a kaya).

SN 35.204 wrote:"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the six media of sensory contact, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified."


Satipatthana (and therefore anapanasati) as a practice is based around the panc'upadanakhandas; here the word "rupa" means rupakhanda.

"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the five clinging-aggregates, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified."


Either way one goes about it:

"In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered."


I expect kayanupassana was an earlier modality based on and coming out of the renunciate culture and was taught for a while, and that satipatthana was developed later on and taught as well.

Very speculative, at this point.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby danieLion » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:49 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi danieLion,

You're now confusing me. Kayanupassani in terms of anapanasati?

:anjali:
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Sorry about that, Mike. Contemplation/calming of the body in terms of mindfulness of breathing.
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:05 am

Hi Daniel,

OK, I thought you mean the body contemplation:
And further, monks, a monk reflects on this very body enveloped by the skin and full of manifold impurity, from the soles up, and from the top of the head-hairs down, thinking thus: "There are in this body hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin, flesh, sinews, bones, marrow, kidney, heart, liver, midriff, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, gorge, feces, bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, grease, saliva, nasal mucus, synovial fluid, urine."

I suggest you explain what you are trying to do, and what your issue is, just using English.
Personally I find the use of Pali terms just confuses me... :thinking:


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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby danieLion » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:50 am

daverupa wrote:
danieLion wrote:For all practical purposes (mental cultivation, development, meditation, etc...) is there a difference between rupa and kaya?


Just throwing this out there; I'm not too committed to it yet:

Well I'm glad you threw it out there, because it makes a lot of sense--for the most part.

daverupa wrote:Kaya is related to the six senses, rupa is related to the five aggregates, but worrying about how to reconcile the two schemas is to create an unnecessary stumbling block by missing the fact that it's a matter of one practice or another:
Indeed. But the "anapanasati schema" includes both kaya, at steps 1-4, and the khandas, at the anupassana/contemplation Tetrad (13-16).

daverupa wrote:I expect kayanupassana was an earlier modality based on and coming out of the renunciate culture and was taught for a while, and that satipatthana was developed later on and taught as well.

Very speculative, at this point.

Furthermore, in Satipatthana, Analayo presents a strong case (p. 202) that the khandas concept pre-dated the Buddha, suggesting the Buddha's innovation was to relate the panca-khanda to upadana (another paticca samuppada/dependent origination link for Retro ;)). I'm not so much trying to fit schemas together as to put the Buddha's psychology in terms I can better understand. More than that, I want to deepen my understanding of how my knowledge of psychology is different from AND similar to the Buddha's. If the Buddha could appropriate the khandas to fit into his psychology, and if practices were morphing along in the renunciate days, as you speculate Dave, then it seems wise to me to that we as modern practitioners should do our best to translate the Buddha's psychology into my understanding of psychology and vice versa.

When we do anapanasati and observe the arising and passing of thoughts (an English, Western concept), am doing step 7, cittasankharapatisamvedi (experiencing mental fabrication), or step 13, where I contemplate the impermanence of the khandas (aniccanupassa)? Thinking involves sankhara, which is part of the khanda schema and a major component of anapanasati steps 7-12. etc.... I'm saying this to illustrate that the terms the Buddha and/or Canon compilers used was fitting for them but not for us. Understanding some Pali and reading Suttas and studying helps, but human experience is virtually identical to human experience in the Buddha's time (we have different stuff to condition us, but the conditioning principles are the same).

That's enough (and probably too much) for now.
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby PeterB » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:20 am

Frankly Daniel you are over thinking the whole thing.
Buddhist meditation is a set of psychomotor skills akin to ice skating or sculpture....you get good at it by doing it.
After appropriate hand on instruction. You cant figure this stuff out. Its not of that order. You do it.
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby daverupa » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:21 am

danieLion wrote:Indeed. But the "anapanasati schema" includes both kaya, at steps 1-4, and the khandas, at the anupassana/contemplation Tetrad (13-16).


Anapanasati I is rupa, not kaya. I --> rupa, II --> vedana, III --> citta = sanna-sankhara-vinnana, IV --> particular Dhamma

danieLion wrote:If the Buddha could appropriate the khandas to fit into his psychology, and if practices were morphing along in the renunciate days, as you speculate Dave, then it seems wise to me to that we as modern practitioners should do our best to translate the Buddha's psychology into my understanding of psychology and vice versa.


I think this has a chance to go awry, and isn't needed. Anapanasati is fairly clear already, and thinking with the Dhamma is the point (tetrad IV), not using modern terms to think about it.

danieLion wrote:When we do anapanasati and observe the arising and passing of thoughts (an English, Western concept), am doing step 7, cittasankharapatisamvedi (experiencing mental fabrication), or step 13, where I contemplate the impermanence of the khandas (aniccanupassa)? Thinking involves sankhara, which is part of the khanda schema and a major component of anapanasati steps 7-12. etc.... I'm saying this to illustrate that the terms the Buddha and/or Canon compilers used was fitting for them but not for us.


It's just fine for us. This thing "observe the arising and passing of thoughts" is the problem, because that's not a step in anapanasati. Either you're doing tetrad III, or you're doing tetrad IV. The phrase "steps 7-12" is breaking it up inappropriately. The phrase "doing step 7" and "doing step 13" are truncating it inappropriately. I, II, III, IV are processes to be mindful of (and, with "he trains" instead of "he knows", processes to enact) while breathing, not comprised of sixteen steps to mark off in order.

Besides, if this gets too complex, just do kayanupassana instead. Much simpler if there's a tendency to get lost in mental minutiae. It's also appropriate as walking meditation, anapanasati not so much.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:27 pm

I don't understand much about the details of this discussion and in the process of trying to find out about kayanupassana as being something less complex than anapanasati I went to Nayanatiloka's Dictionary and found this in the definition for Satipatthāna....it is the description of the first of four foundations of awareness or mindfulness:
".....................
1: The contemplation of the body kāyanupassanā consists of the following exercises: awareness or mindfulness with regard to in-and-outbreathing ānāpānasati, minding the 4 postures iriyāpatha, awareness or mindfulness and clarity of consciousness satisampajañña, reflection on the 32 parts of the body see: kāyagatāsati and asubha analysis of the 4 physical elements dhātuvavatthāna, cemetery meditations sīvathikā.
............"

Seems that here kayanupassana as it applies to satipatthana includes anapanasati so seems like it can not be considered less complex than anapanasati....I guess....and this does seem to imply that at least within the context of satipatthana that anapanasati is involved with kaya since it is part of kayanupassana.....I guess........but I might very well be missing something in the discussion....I don't know....
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby daverupa » Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:27 pm

chownah wrote:kayanupassana as being something less complex than anapanasati


This isn't what I claimed. I said "if this gets too complex, do this other", not "this other is objectively less complex".

chownah wrote:Seems that here kayanupassana as it applies to satipatthana includes anapanasati...


My tentative theory is that satipatthana was developed afterwards, and the Nikaya compilers were in the very beginning stages of setting up comprehensive correspondences. This accounts for the conglomeration that is the Satipatthana Sutta, as well as the Kayagatasati Sutta appearing to have been passed rather artificially through that rubric, resulting in its current form.

Otherwise, why don't we have the Vedanagatasati Sutta, or the Cittagatasati Sutta?

:shrug:

Maybe not, of course.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby chownah » Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:05 pm

I'm still struggling to follow.....seems that you are questioning the way that the concept of satipatthana has been transmitted and that it is your view that annapanasati should not be included in it...is this correct? Also, is it your view that satipatthana was not taught by the Buddha but was a later invention? I'm just wondering....not accusing!!!!!
chownah
Edit: Having thought about this more could it be that you are saying that annapanasati is rightfully part of satipatthana only it has been mistakenly classified under kayanupassana and that annapanasati and kayanupassana are two seperate parts of satipatthana?
chownah
Yet another edit: Having thought about this more it seems to me that the annapanasati at the beginning of the Satipatthana Sutta seems to be a preparation for all four of the foundations that then follow....this would seem to give support to the idea that annapanasati is not part of the Body foundation but rather an overall support for all four parts of the entire exercise...although it doesn't prove that. Also, does anyone know what Pali word is used for "body" in the annapanasati part of this sutta?
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby daverupa » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:21 pm

chownah wrote:I'm still struggling to follow.....seems that you are questioning the way that the concept of satipatthana has been transmitted and that it is your view that annapanasati should not be included in it...is this correct?


Not even close. Anapanasati fulfills satipatthana perfectly.

chownah wrote:Also, is it your view that satipatthana was not taught by the Buddha but was a later invention?


I'm suggesting that satipatthana was a pedagogical strategy the Buddha developed over the course of ~45 years of teaching; kayanupassana was taught moreso in the early years of that period and was based on extant renunciate methodology, while satipatthana was taught moreso in the later years.

SN 54.9 wrote:Now on that occasion the Blessed One, with many lines of reasoning, was giving the monks a talk on the unattractiveness [of the body], was speaking in praise of [the perception of] unattractiveness, was speaking in praise of the development of [the perception of] unattractiveness...

{the sort of thing one finds in the Kayagatasati Sutta}

...In one day, ten monks took the knife. In one day, twenty monks took the knife. In one day, thirty monks took the knife. Then the Blessed One, emerging from his seclusion after half a month's time, said to Ven. Ananda, "Ananda, why does the community of monks seem so depleted?" "Because, lord, the Blessed One, with many lines of reasoning...

Then the Blessed One went to the assembly hall and sat down on a seat made ready. As he was sitting there, he addressed the monks: "Monks, this concentration through mindfulness of in-&-out breathing...

{and now anapanasati}


...as one of the possible reasons for such a shift, for example.

chownah wrote:Edit: Having thought about this more could it be that you are saying that annapanasati is rightfully part of satipatthana only it has been mistakenly classified under kayanupassana and that annapanasati and kayanupassana are two seperate parts of satipatthana?


Satipatthana was, towards the end of the Buddha's life, taken as the preferential modality for sammasati, becoming defined as such in the Noble Eightfold Path template. Satipatthana's four categories correspond well to the five aggregates. In the Samyutta Nikaya, there is a large section on the five aggregates, and a large section on the six sense bases - two complete totality formulas - yet there is no corresponding "six sense base satipatthana" method, other than perhaps kayanupassana.

I'm suggesting, based on SN 54.9, that kayanupassana gave way to satipatthana as the preferred bhavana of the early Sangha, but that based on SN 35.204 there were two bhavana methodologies corresponding to the two totality formulas as found in the Samyutta. (In fact, SN 35.204 hints at the four elements/kasina discs and namarupa as possibly also having methodologies, but that's going even farther afield, so here I'm sticking with the other two - the OP's terms.)

In any event, kayanupassana was forced by the Nikaya compilers to conform to the satipatthana template on account of this later emphasis, despite the awkward fit.

As I said, wholly speculative, but I think it makes sense.
Last edited by daverupa on Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby Zom » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:10 pm

Look here about KAYA ,)

(compehensive reading) :reading:

http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstrea ... thesis.pdf
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Re: Rupa, Kaya & Practice

Postby Sylvester » Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:39 am

daverupa wrote:
SN 54.9 wrote:Now on that occasion the Blessed One, with many lines of reasoning, was giving the monks a talk on the unattractiveness [of the body], was speaking in praise of [the perception of] unattractiveness, was speaking in praise of the development of [the perception of] unattractiveness...

{the sort of thing one finds in the Kayagatasati Sutta}

...


...as one of the possible reasons for such a shift, for example.




Hi dave

I note you underscored the "with many lines of reasoning" from the Vesali Sutta. Could you perhaps explain that?

The underlined phrase is anekapariyāyena in the Pali. It occurs many times in the Canon, and is not localised to asubha contemplation, but given in other contexts as well, eg MN 38 where the "method" was said of the Buddha's analysis of paṭiccasamuppanna viññāṇa, or of the discourses on obstructions posed by sensuality in MN 22.
Sylvester
 
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