And what is the "deathless"? Contemplating some "thing" such as as that iis conceptual thinking. There are far better things to do.starter wrote:Hello Teachers/Friends,
While contemplating the deathless:
rowyourboat wrote:Hi Starter,
The sutta is pretty clear if you take it at face value, contorted if you try to escape its basic meaning.
If all fabrications cease for a moment, all arising and passing away (of the five aggregates) cease, self ceases, craving ceases, awareness/consciousness ceases- THIS is true stilling- the flame going out, going beyond 'death' (and life) beyond existence and non-existence, it is complete cessation with no room for doubt or rites/rituals to misinterpret- it is Nibbaana through and through. Simple and direct. Your mind may not 'leap up to it' as you see nothing good in it - but contemplations such as 'Contemplating Nibbana' (nibbanussati?) as taught to Mahanama can be helpful in making the mind more receptive to stilling, cessation, non-arising, 'cooling', putting down the burden (of the aggregates) etc.
Kenshou wrote:I feel that ven Thanissaro's idea of nibbana as some kind of unconditioned consciousness separate from the 6 sense media is just as erroneous as the idea of the experience of nibbana as the cessation of experience, albeit leaning in the opposite direction.
Kenshou wrote:Also, I believe awhile ago Tilt wrote up a post explaining how the reification of nibbana as some literal "dimension" is a result of not-so-good translation, but for the life of me I can't find that either.
tiltbillings wrote:These words - ajātaṃ abhūtaṃ akataṃ asaṅkhataṃ - are adjectives, not nouns, but everyone of these "un" translations treats them as nouns, which is very, very misaleading. "Atthi" - there is. The noun that follows this is implied. There is what?
The immediate context, the sutta opens:
Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying near Savatthi in the Jeta Wood at Anathapindika's monastery. On that occasion the Lord was instructing, rousing, inspiring, and gladdening the bhikkhus with a Dhamma talk connected with Nibbana, and those bhikkhus, being receptive and attentive and concentrating the whole mind, were intent on listening to Dhamma. Then, on realizing its significance, the Lord uttered on that occasion this inspired utterance: There is, bhikkhus, ajaata....
What we see right off the top is that the subject is nibbana. There is what? Nibbana. The four adjective modify, describe nibbana. So in the forms we have them above or in variations these four words are used to describe or characterize nibbana or are synonyms of nibbana.
The most straightforward definition the Buddha gives of Nibbana is:
That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321
And we see:
That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata. -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362
Clearly nibbana and asankhata are equivalent terms, synonyms. Nibbana is asankhata, “unconditioned,” because there is no further conditioning - sankhata - by hatred, greed and ignorance. The prefix "a" in asankhata is a cognate of the English (Latin/Greek) prefix a as in, for example, asexual, without sexual characteristics, free of sexual characteristics. (And before a vowel, just as in English the Pali/Sanskrit privative a becomes an as in anatta/anatama.)
The privative a in Sanskrit/Pali needs not be, as unfortunately it so often is, limited to being translated as "un," "not," or "non." Asankhata, unconditioned, can be translated as free from conditions (of hatred, greed, and ignorance), without conditions, or, conditionlessness.
One of things that is often said is that nibbana is "the Unborn." Let us look at that usage where ajaata and nibbana are clearly synonyms:
Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, thus instructed by me [the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking the unborn [jaata.m], the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won the unborn, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...." -- from the PTS translation of the Majjhima Nikaya I 173
What is the "unborn?" What does it mean? Try this:
”Then the group of five monks, being thus exhorted, thus instructed by me [the Buddha], being liable to birth because of self, having known the perils in what is liable to birth, seeking freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana -- won freedom from birth, the uttermost security from the bonds -- nibbana...."
Here there is a balance: being liable to birth and freedom from birth that actually tells us something useful and does not leave us with a mysterious - what the heck is it? - "unborn."
There is no philological reason that the four words in question must be translated as we generally see them translated: unborn, unconditioned, etc.
As was said above the line in Udana is a sentence without a noun but with a string of adjectives, which are essentially synonyms, or at least words with significant over lapping meanings that clearly define nibbana.
We might translate the "un" line so:
"There is [nibbana], free from birth, free from becoming, free from making, free from conditioning."
Translating ajaata.m etc, by "freedom from birth," etc. supplies the implied noun via the privative a as in asankhata.
We do not see in the Buddha's own commentary to this passage below (as found in the Itivuttaka, 37-8) any reference to a Nibbana that is some sort of "unborn" thing, but we do see that "being freed of this" is a state of ease -- the "the conditions appeased (sankharupasamo)," a variation of asankhata, nibbana -- is reached. If the Buddha had wanted to teach a deathless, unborn “it,” we would have seen a very different sort of expression of the Dhamma.
That which is born, become, arisen, made, conditioned,
And thus unstable, put together of decay and death,
The seat of disease, brittle,
Caused and craving food,
That is not fit to find pleasure in.
Being freed of this, calmed beyond conjecture, stable,
Freed from birth, freed from arising, freed from sorrow,
Freed from passions, the elements of suffering stopped,
The conditioning [of greed, hatred and delusion]appeased,
This is ease [bliss].
kirk5a wrote:That sutta says:
"With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection]"
It does not say all awareness/consciousness, as Matheesha does.
rowyourboat wrote:Those of you who have problems with the causally arisen fire going out, I wish you a long and pleasant samsara.
Kenshou wrote:No doubt it's a tricky subject, but I feel that ven Thanissaro's idea of nibbana as some kind of unconditioned consciousness separate from the 6 sense media is just as erroneous as the idea of the experience of nibbana as the cessation of experience, albeit leaning in the opposite direction.
kirk5a wrote:The bigger elephant in the room would be Ãcariya Mahã Boowa's comments on the citta. I post those here and the usual "wrong-viewers" are quiet as church mice. Why is that?
kirk5a wrote:rowyourboat wrote:Those of you who have problems with the causally arisen fire going out, I wish you a long and pleasant samsara.
Whatever is causally arisen, is subject to cessation.
Is that different from saying - everything whatsoever is subject to cessation?
Or is that exactly the same statement? And which one did the Buddha say?
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