What is the meaning of Paramattha?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:59 am

Hi SarathW,

I'm not clear what exactly on page 184 you are referring to. Perhaps you are working from a version with different page numbers? It might be helpful if you copied the start of the passage you are recommending.

:anjali:
Mike

SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:27 pm

Hi Mike
The way I understand that, there is no an ultimate unchangeable element of existence.
Everything is subject to dependent origination.
Every thing is subject to impermanence and insubstantiality.

As a human it is enough for us to know that the five aggregate is the ultimate conceivable component of our existence.
With that knowledge we can realise Anatta and make our way to the liberation.

:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:57 am

You look at a river and you think the water is always
there. You know that every second there is new water flowing.
There are many similes to demonstrate the ultimate truth and
the conventional truth. These are just some of the similes. For
example, a car, we say that a car is a convention and the parts
are ultimate truth. Of course even the parts are not ultimate
truth yet. If you break it down to the smallest particle, that
particle is the ultimate truth. The smallest particle of matter is
the ultimate truth.

Page 39
http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/fi ... dies-I.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:55 pm

Good article about this question:

Now the use of the two words, saccikattha and paramattha (" real and ultimate" )
as indicative of the nature of dhammas seems to give the impression that in denying
the reality of the person the Theravadins have overstressed the reality of the
dhammas. Does this amount to the admission that the dhammas are real and
discrete entities existing in their own right? Such a conclusion, it appears to us, is
not tenable.

Page 8:
http://www.stefan.gr/buddhism/books/abh ... theory.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby Bakmoon » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:23 pm

It is a term used in the context of the two truths, and it is the antonym to the term Sammuti, which means conventional.

According to my understanding, ultimate reality is that which is directly experienced, and conventional reality is conceptual. To borrow your example of a house, the ultimate reality is the set of experiences which you have, such as the seeing, hearing, smelling, and touching of the house (you could include taste here, but I don't know of many people who lick their houses).

Based on these experiences which arise and cease, the mind generalizes a concept, in this case the concept of house, and this concept of house doesn't exist as a direct experience, so you can't call it ultimate reality. You can't say categorically there isn't a house however, as the concept of house is based on experience and is consistent with direct experience, so we say that it exists, but in a different sense. That is to say, we say the house exists in a conventional sense.

That's how I understand the distinction between ultimate and conventional reality anyways. There are probably other and more precise definitions out there, but I think this is a good practical way of understanding it.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

jagodage
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 7:11 am

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby jagodage » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:25 am

The dialogue regarding meaning of Paramatta Dharma.

It is very interesting discussion.

Since I joined recently only now I was able to read.The understanding an experience of Sammuthi and Paramattha Dharama is the 1st stepping stone in entering Vipassana Meditation.

The subject matter of this concept is relative.In this sense the Theory of Relativity has some relevance to this subject. We are tiny speck of our Galaxy.And atom consist of electron, proton and neutron.The relative distances more or less similar in both.

Therefore we should consider only what is minimum necessity to achieve ultimate Goal.It is by wisdom one should choose the necessity.This discussion throws some light on wisdom.

With Metta
:anjali:
:candle: :candle: :candle:

thomaslaw
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby thomaslaw » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:43 am

Dear Dhamma friends,

Having read your postings regarding the notion/concept of Paramattha, and the information of this notion shown in Abhidhammattha Sangaha 'Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma', p. 25, it is very likely that the teachings of Paramattha (and its connection with Pa~n~natti 'Concept') are obviously 'not' supported by the suttas, such as the SN suttas (cf. Choong MK, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism, pp. 54, 92, 138 (on 'pa~n~naapeti'), 154).
E.g. the five aggregates (according to the SN suttas) should be seen as they realy are as 'void (without reality, rittaka), insubstantial (tucchaka), and lacking essence (asaaraka)' (SN 22.95: PTS, iii, 140-143), because they (the five aggregates) are phenomena (dhammas) arisen by causal condition ('not' by their own right as 'irreducible' realities/components of existence), having the nature (dhamma) of anicca 'impermanence', nirodha 'cessation' (SN 12.20: PTS ii, 25-27).

Regards,

Thomas

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:39 am

Hi Thomas,

I think that may be an over interpretation of the terms. See this discussion, for example:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p269377

:anjali:
Mike

thomaslaw
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:55 am
Location: Australia

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby thomaslaw » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:28 am

HI Mike,

>M: I think that may be an over interpretation of the terms. See this discussion, for example:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=19206&start=80#p269377

I am unable to see it is an over interpretation of the trems I mentioned here. Also, the term paramattha and its idealistic, systematic meanings are simply 'not' found in the suttas (particularly the SN suttas).

Regards,

Thomas

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:58 am

Have you read the references that Tiltbillings gave in the link I gave above, particularly the book by Ven Nyanaponika: ABHIDHAMMA STUDIES?

Please note that this is the Abhidhamma section, which is about clarifying the meaning of the Abhidhamma. Arguments that simply dismiss the Abhidhamma belong in .



:anjali:
Mike

Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby Bakmoon » Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:01 pm

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:05 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:56 pm

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:14 pm


Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby Bakmoon » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:26 am

The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:40 am


SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the meaning of Paramattha?

Postby SarathW » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:07 am

Thanks Bakmoon
How does Nibbana is fitting to your analysis?
Does Nibbana also realise within the range?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: What is the meaning of Paramattha?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:10 am


User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: What is the meaning of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:47 pm

Samyutta nikaya Khandhavagga (37(5)Ananda
P880 Bodhi translation
"the blessed one said to Ananda
"if Ananda they were to ask you 'Friend Ananda, what are the things
of whcih an arising is discerned,a vanishing is discerned, an
alteration of that which STANDS(thitassa annathattam) is discerned?
Being asked thus, how would you answer?"endquote [Ananda says the
five khandas are those things that have these qualities (of arising,
alteration while STANDING and dissolution). endquote The Buddha
applauds his answer.

Yes t khandhas exist, as we have that clearly
stated in the suttas also:
Samyutta Nikaya Khandavagga 94(2) Flowers Bodhi page 950
"Form (rupa) that is impermanet, suffering and subject to change;
this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say
that it exists. Feeing that is impermanent, suffering and subject to
change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing and I too
say it EXISTS. Perception (sanna)that is impermanent, suffering and
subject to change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing
and I too say it EXISTS. Sankhara that is impermanent, suffering and
subject to change; this the wise in the world agree upon as existing
and I too say it EXISTS. Vinnana (consciousness) that is
impermanent, suffering and subject to change; this the wise in the
world agree upon as existing and I too say it EXISTS.""endquote

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: What is the meanig of Paramattha?

Postby robertk » Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:21 pm



Return to “Abhidhamma”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine