Resultant mind-consciousness?

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Resultant mind-consciousness?

Postby Sati1 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 7:51 am

Hello,

The Abhidhammattha Sangaha states that there are 6 types of consciousness, including a mind-consciousness (manovinnana, Ch. IV, 3), suggesting that resultant consciousnesses can arise at the beginning of a mind-door process. Why is it then that such a citta is not mentioned in the description of the mind-door process, where the only resultants seem to be those that follow the javanas (Ch. IV, 12)? I am trying to understand if past kusala and akusala kamma can ripen directly into mind-door processes, or if it can do so only into sense-door processes.

Thank you,
Sati1
London, UK

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.10, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Re: Resultant mind-consciousness?

Postby anatta1 » Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:00 pm

''past kusala and akusala kamma'' are anatta.
Which both arise by the Upadana---Cling...not you, not me, not males, not females, not solid, not building, not deva, not places, not colours,.not not...nothing...

simply count as....
all began...
Don't know >>> Crave >>> Cling >>> Input (Kama-Do) >>> Achieve >>>...suffer....
...
so other way round,.....

Where is all begin,....answer is Not Knowing ( avija)
Where is all end,.....answer is awakening (vija)

sorry for my poor Pali and English.

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Re: Resultant mind-consciousness?

Postby randall » Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:28 am

hello Sati1,

my understanding is pretty limited so I apologize in advance if I happen to fall off track!

Sati1 wrote:The Abhidhammattha Sangaha states that there are 6 types of consciousness, including a mind-consciousness (manovinnana, Ch. IV, 3),


The beginning of chapter is presenting 6 types of cognitive processes, consciousness is one part of it.

Sati1 wrote:suggesting that resultant consciousnesses can arise at the beginning of a mind-door process. Why is it then that such a citta is not mentioned in the description of the mind-door process


resultant cittas arise as the second(I'm excluding the first 3 bhavanga's for now) of the "5 door process", after the "five-door-adverting" citta. It's resultant is kusala or akusala to whatever of the 5 senses(any but the mind) it makes contact with, then does it's processing of "receiving", "investigating", and then "determining", then "javana", and finishes with "registering". This determining citta has two functions, for the "the 5 door process" it determines and is called "determining/vottapana-citta", for the "mind-door process" it doesn't determine because the object that makes contact with the mind was already apprehended and determined from a previous experience, so instead it acts as "mind-door-adverting/mano-dvaravajjana-citta" and goes straight to the "javana's".



In the CMA (ch.IV, guide to 12 (2)independent mind-door-process) the question as to "how an object can enter the range of the mind door independently of a proximate sensory impingement" is answered with:
through what was directly perceived earlier...if one has clearly experienced an object even once, at a later time---even after a hundred years or in the future life---dependent on that object a condition may be set for the vibration of the bhavanga"


Sati1 wrote:Why is it then that such a citta is not mentioned in the description of the mind-door process, where the only resultants seem to be those that follow the javanasI am trying to understand if past kusala and akusala kamma can ripen directly into mind-door processes, or if it can do so only into sense-door processes.




these may help to clear some things up about javana...



Abhidhamma in daily life, Nina Van Gorkom. (CH.13, pg124)

Vottapana-citta is not vipaka and it is not kusala or akusala but it is ahetuka kiriyacitta(rootless functional). As we have seen, the votthapana-citta is actually the mano-dvaravajjana-citta which performs in the sense-door process the function of votthapana and is called votthapana-citta. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta can perform more than one function; in the mind-door process it performs the function of adverting to an object through the mind-door. If the mano-dvaravajjana-citta is succeded by kusala cittas there is "wise attention" and if it is succeeded by akusala cittas there is "unwise attention".


We are inclined to think that in the process of cittas, akusala vipakacittas which experience an unpleasant object should necessarily be followed be akusala cittas, since we let ourselves be ruled by the objects we experience. However, if there is 'wise attention' there is no aversion towards unpleasant objects. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas arise because of conditions which are entirely different from the conditions for vipakacittas. Akusala vipaka and kusala vipaka are the result of kamma. We should realize that our life is nama and rupa which arise because of conditions and fall away immediately. If we would only realize that vipaka is but a moment of citta which falls away as soon as it has arisen, we would be less likely to be overcome by the unpleasant objects we experience. There would be more conditions for 'wise attention' instead of 'unwise attention'.


chapter 14:
The kusala cittas or akusala cittas which arise perform a function; they perform the function of javana...In the sense-door process the votthapana-citta has determined the object already when the javana-cittas arise and in the mind-door process the mano-dvaravajjana-citta has adverted to the object already when the javana-cittas arise. Thus the kusala cittas or akusala cittas which follow have as their only function to 'run through' the object. There is not just one moment of citta which performs the function of javana, but usually there are seven cittas in sucession whic perform this function
https://archive.org/details/AbhidhammaInDailyLife


'run through' can be replaced with 'experiencing' like in the story of the man who eats the mango fruit.



CMA CH.IV (guide to 17) ed: Bhikkhu Bodhi
It should be noted that while the resultant cittas are governed by the nature of the object, the javanas are not, but vary in accordance with the temperament and proclivities of the experiencer. Even when the object is extremely desirable, the javanas may occur in the mode of indifference as wholesome or unwholesome cittas accompanied by equanimity.
http://store.pariyatti.org/Comprehensive-Manual-of-Abhidhamma-A--PDF-eBook_p_4362.html


Handbook of Abhidhamma Vol 1(pg382) Venerable U Silananda
It is yoniso-manasikara that determines weather the javanas will be kusala or akusala. This is a disireable object. It is a disireable object determined by average people. But I may not like it or I don't like it. I have a seeing thought process. The seeing, receiving and investigating moment and so on will depend on the quality of the object, the real quality of the object. That means the average quality of the object. My javana will not depend on the real quality of the object, but on my reaction to the object.
http://buddhispano.net/sites/default/files/uploads/Handbook-of-Abhidhamma-Studies-I.pdf


The art of living, (CH 8, the stock of past reactions) S.N Goenka

Every reaction is the last step, the result in a sequence of mental processes, but it can also be the first step, the causes in a new mental sequence. Every sankhara is both conditioned by the processes leading to it and also conditions the processes that follow.

The conditioning operates by influencing the second of the mental functions, perception. Consciousness is basically undifferentiating, non-discriminating. It's purpose is merely to register that contact has occurred in mind or body. Perception, however, is discriminative. It draws on the store of the past experiences in order to evaluate and categorize any new phenomenon...In this way the old reactions of craving and aversion influence our perception of the present...Our perception of the world outside and of world within is distorted and blurred by our past conditioning, our preferences and prejudices.
http://store.pariyatti.org/Art-of-Living-The--PDF-eBook_p_4598.html


some other links;
http://newlotus.buddhistdoor.com/en/news/d/27344
http://stylomilo.com/files/mv/YMBASr1/Abhidhamma/Javana%20and%20Kamma.pdf




:candle:


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Chachakka_Sutta.htm



:candle: :candle: :candle: :candle: :candle: :candle:
Last edited by randall on Sun May 25, 2014 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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AN 5 198
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Re: Resultant mind-consciousness?

Postby Sati1 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:07 am

Dear Anatta and Randall,

Thank you very much for your answers and for the links. It does seems then, that the mind-door process does not contain any resultant cittas before the javanas, but only the adverting functional citta. This is very interesting, since it indicates that mind-door processes are not triggered by past kamma (i.e. when a memory arises, it is not due to past kamma that has ripened at that moment). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you,
Sati1
London, UK

----
"I do not perceive even one other thing, o monks, that when developed and cultivated entails such great happiness as the mind" (AN 1.10, transl. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)
"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and vision for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end," (MN 29, transl. Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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