Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:54 am

Is Citta linear in that way Mike ? ( not a rhetorical question btw, just one that occurs )

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:22 am

PeterB wrote:Is Citta linear in that way Mike ? ( not a rhetorical question btw, just one that occurs )

I don't know. That's why I'm asking...

Presumably it's not completely linear, since it leads to very complicated mental processes.

Mike

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby PeterB » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:57 am

I dont know either.. :smile: My cushion awaits.....

pt1
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby pt1 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:23 am

mikenz66 wrote:For example, we talk about dependent origination: contact, feeling, craving, ... Is the sequence supposed to be subsequent citta, or long sequences of citta?

Hi Mike, might be wrong, but I think in abhidhamma/commentary terms, contact, feeling and craving would be cetasikas arising at the same time with a citta, so it would happen every time depending on the citta kind. I.e. if it's kusala, then contact and feeling would happen at the same time as they are universal cetasikas (arise with every citta), but not craving which can arise as a cetasika only with akusala cittas.

There have been several modern teachers (like Buddhadasa) that take dependent origination (or at least it's middle part) to be a (very fast) sequential process, but I think in abhidhamma/commentary terms, if you're looking for a sequence of cittas, then you have to look into the sense-door and mind-door process sequences - i.e. 17 cittas for the sense-door process, followed by bhavanga cittas and then 10 cittas for the mind-door process, again bhavanga cittas, and then repeat that mind-door/bhanvaga cittas variation depending on how long the person thinks about what was perceived by the sense-door and first mind-door process. Anyway, I remember I realy liked the explanation of dependent origination in A comprehensive manual of abhidhamma by Bhikkhu Bdhi, as I think he gives the explanation both according to sutta method as well as abhidhamma method if I'm not mistaken.

Best wishes

Virgo
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby Virgo » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:21 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Yes, but that doesn't really address my question, which is to do with how many citta of contact, feeling, and craving there are in the sequence (one of each citta or billions of each citta or something in between).

Hi Mike,

I don't think it works in such a way that we can determine how many citta arise in such processes; it is simply not that kind of thing. Nevertheless, we can see that all consciousness is dependently arisen, it's condition being mental formations, who's condition is turn is ignorance.


With Ignorance as condition, Mental Formations arise
With Mental Formations as condition, Consciousness arises
With Consciousness as condition, Name and Form arise
With Name & Form as condition, Sense Gates arise
With Sense Gates as condition, Contact arises
With Contact as condition, Feeling arises
With Feeling as condition, Craving arises
With Craving as condition, Clinging arises
With Clinging as condition, Becoming arises
With Becoming as a condition, Birth arises
With Birth as condition, Aging and Dying arise
Repeat

The way to be free is to be free of ignorance. What must be developed to remove ignorance? The mental factor panna or wisdom must be developed. How do we develop the mental faculty of panna or wisdom? By Understanding nama and rupa and the fact that they are conditioned. Then the cycle can be broken, resulting in freedom from stress.

kevin

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:43 am

Hi Kevin,

Yes, I am aware of all of that. But I was trying to elucidate some of the details pertaining to:
Virgo wrote:By Understanding nama and rupa and the fact that they are conditioned.

along the lines of PT's post.

Metta
Mike

Virgo
Posts: 1209
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby Virgo » Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:53 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,

Yes, I am aware of all of that. But I was trying to elucidate some of the details pertaining to:
Virgo wrote:By Understanding nama and rupa and the fact that they are conditioned.

along the lines of PT's post.

Metta
Mike

Hi Mike, I am sorry I could not answer your question in a clearer way. Perhaps if I had more merit I would be able to help.

I think that consciousness is simply conditioned by mental formations, which form because of ignorance, so there is no point in trying to see how many citta are directly involved in this; citta simply arise because we are ignorant. Looking past that is of no use, in my opinion, because every citta and cetasika, all nama, are conditioned by ignorance. In my opionion, Mike, what is more important is understanding the workings of individual citta, cetasika, and rupa. That is where satipatthana can arise. Also, I think understanding the elements and sense bases is very important. In my opinion, the individual need not know much more than how cittas work, how and what cetasikas arise, how rupa works including the sense bases and elements, and understanding and reflecting on the fact that they all arise simply by conditions. One ought to review and discuss this dhamma. Why? Because we are people of lower intelligence. If we had high panna, we would be celibates and so on.

Kevin

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:03 am

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote: One ought to review and discuss this dhamma.

Well, yes, that's what I'm doing. Reviewing and discussing this dhamma...

Metta
Mike

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby PeterB » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:39 am

I can tell you what helps me Mike, but that might simply amount to a means which happens to suit me. That is to "drive all cittas into one ".

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 10833
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 1001
Location: New Zealand

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:27 pm

Hi Peter,
PeterB wrote:I can tell you what helps me Mike, but that might simply amount to a means which happens to suit me. That is to "drive all cittas into one ".

Sorry, this is a little cryptic for me.

Remember that this is the Abhidhamma forum. I believe it's supposed to be a place for technical discussions of Abhidhamma.

Guidelines: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=374

Metta
Mike

PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm
Which number is larger than 1000 and less than 1002: 6

Re: Speed of citta and meditation/observation

Postby PeterB » Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:27 am

My apologies Mike, you are correct of course. I was leaping clumsily into the experiential.
Citta and Cetasika whether viewed as dhatu, vatthu or vinnana arise when proper conditions arise and carry out their respective functions, there is no organising principle or independant entity that controls them. They arise from Avijja, ultimately they in the normal way return in a sense to Avijja. However that is an expedient and possibly necessary way to to describe a process which is only nominally linear.Lets borrow an analogy from Big Bang theory. The proposition is that time comes into being with matter, so the question what happened before the Big Bang is redundant , there was no before. Likewise Citta and Cetasika arise in total ,and simultaneously , from Avijja. Our perception of a lineal sequence to this event is an inevitable result of our biology. And can only be transcended by the arising of Insight.

Thus have I heard.
:anjali:


Return to “Abhidhamma”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine