Moderator: Mahavihara moderator
Ajahn Payutto wrote:Those who do not agree with this interpretation, or who would prefer something more immediate, can find alternatives not only in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, where the principle of Dependent Origination is shown occurring in its entirety in one mind moment, but can also interpret the very same words of the Buddha used to support the standard model in a different light, giving a very different picture of the principle of Dependent Origination, one which is supported by teachings and scriptural references from other sources.
Nanamoli wrote:In this work, for convenience because of the special importance attached here to the
aspect of the death-rebirth link, the dependent origination is considered from only
one standpoint, namely, as applicable to a period embracing a minimum of three lives.
But this is not the only application. With suitable modifications it is also used in the
Vibhaòga to describe the structure of the complex in each one of the 89 single type-
consciousnesses laid down in the Dhammasaògaóì; and Bhadantácariya Buddhaghosa
says: “This structure of conditions is present not only in (a continuity period consisting
of) multiple consciousnesses but also in each single consciousness as well” (Vibh-a
199–200). Also the Paþisambhidámagga gives five expositions, four describing
dependent origination in one life, the fifth being made to present a special inductive
generalization to extend what is observable in this life (the fact that consciousness is
always preceded by consciousness, cf. this Ch. §83f.—i.e. that it always has a past and
is inconceivable without one) back beyond birth, and (since craving and ignorance
ensure its expected continuance) on after death. There are, besides, various other,
differing applications indicated by the variant forms given in the suttas themselves.
Tattha katamaṁ ‘viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ?’
Herein, what is ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form?’
Atthi nāmaṁ, atthi rūpaṁ.
There is mind, there is bodily form.
Tattha katamaṁ ‘nāmaṁ?’
Herein, what is ‘mind?’
Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho:
(There is) the feeling constituent, the perception constituent, the (volitional) processes constituent: 10
Idaṁ vuccati ‘nāmaṁ.’
this is said to be ‘mind.’
Tattha katamaṁ ‘rūpaṁ?’
Herein, what is ‘bodily form?’
Cattāro mahābhūtā, catunnañ-ca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāya rūpaṁ,
(There are) the four great entities, and the bodily form attached to the four great entities,
idaṁ vuccati ‘rūpaṁ.’
this is said to be ‘bodily form.’
Iti idañ-ca nāmaṁ, idañ-ca rūpaṁ.
Thus, this is mind and this is bodily form.
Idaṁ vuccati ‘viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ.’
This is said to be ‘with consciousness as condition: mind and bodily form.’
Vbh "Analysis of nāmarūpa", trans per Ven Anandajoti
1316. Tattha katamaṃ nāmaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu – idaṃ vuccati nāmaṃ.
Herein, what is name? The feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, the consciousness aggregate and the unconditioned element - this is called name.
1317. Tattha katamaṃ rūpaṃ? Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṃ upādāya rūpaṃ – idaṃ vuccati rūpaṃ.
http://tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/abh01m.mul3.xml under the Suttantikadukanikkhepaṃ section
Classical Guidelines wrote:Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative.
Sylvester wrote:I wonder if anyone has noticed how the Vibhangha text appears to be contradicted by the Dhammasangani -
In this connection,
 What is name?
The four skandhas and unconditioned element.
1316, What, in that connection, is mental phenomenon?
There are: the aggregate of Sensation, the aggregate of Perception, the aggregate of Volitional Activities and the aggregate of Consciousness; and also the Unconditioned Element(Nibbana).
This is called mental phenomenon.
1313) Adhivacana Duka
What are the dhamma which are nomenclatures?
1314) Nirutti Duka
What are the dhamma which are specific names?
1315) Pannatti Duka
What are the dhamma which are conventional designations?
There are things which are well denoted by a name, well conveyed by a name, conventionally designated by a name, called by a name, known by a significant name, known by a given name, bearing a givin name, expressed by a specific name, connotated by a name, refereed to by a name.
These are the dhamma that are nomenclatures, specific names, conventional designations.
In the mind and matter group, the term 'mind' (nama) is applied to mental properties, because 'names' once given to them are fixed, or because they bend (namanti) objects, or because as objects they bend the mind unto themselves...This herein is the abstract; the detailed account will appear in the chapter summary.
 In the couplet of 'name-and-form', 'name' (mind) has the sense of name-making, of bending, of causing to bend. Four of the aggregates are 'name' in the sense of name-making.
For whereas, from being named by the people, and whereas parents by acclamation make a name for their son, and whereas the name comes in virtue a quality of "such and such"
such names as 'feeling' come quite otherwise. Feeling and the other [elements of consciouness], like the great earth and other elements, make their own name arise. When they arise their name also arises. For no one, when feeling arises, says: 'Be thou called feeling'; there is no function of name-taking. As when the earth appears there is no function of name-taking;---'Be thou called the Earth;' and similarly with the world-systems, the moon, sun, stars, --the name is just as it arises, answering to the spontaneously arising concept. So when it arises the name 'feeling' just arises, answering to the spontaneously arising concept. The same is true for perceptions and the rest [of mind]. For feeling, whether it be in the past, future, or present, is [after all and always] just feeling. And so is perception, so are mental activities, so is consciousness. But Nibbana, though it be for all time, is always Nibbana. Such is 'name' in the sense of name-making.
The four aggregates are 'name' in the sense of bending, for they bend toward the object [of thought]. In the sense of causing to bend, all [of the foregoing] are 'name.' For the four aggregates cause one another to bend on to the object; and Nibbana bends faultless states on to itself by means of the causal relation of the dominant influence of object.
777. But are only these three aggregates mentality and is consciousness not called mentality? Not that it is not. But if it is included, there comes to be the co-presence of the two kinds of consciousness, namely, consciousness as mentality and consciousness as condition. Therefore, leaving consciousness in its place as condition, the three aggregates only are stated in order to show the mentality which is produced by the condition.
In this connection,
 What is name?
1316, What, in that connection, is mental phenomenon?
Here the Cy. makes use of it's foregoing classification of name-kinds to show under which head to rank nama when distinguished from rupa. Nama must, namely, be understood as opapatika-name(born spontaneously), that is all its constituents must be understood. Feeling, eg. when it arises, is not named on the grounds on which a new individual, or an 'artificial kind' -table, etc.-might be named.
The more concise question: tattha katamam...is now sustained till the end. Up until now it has only been used to cross-question the student on the details of a given answer, on "name", for instance, as part of the contents of the preceding answer. Hence the translation of tattha by "in this connexion"(whatever the term in question may mean elsewhere).It is not clear, however, what is the force of tattha in these last fifty-seven questions, the greater part of the subjects not having occurred in the foregoing part of the manual
1383, Awareness of complete extinction of defilements means the Fruits of the Path with which an ariya person is endowed.
The last thirty-seven pairs of questions and answers on the other hand, are entitled "Suttantika-Dukam". They are of a miscellaneous character, and are in many cases not logically opposed. Buddhagosa has nothing to say by way of explaining theier inclusion, nor the principle determining their choice or number. Nor is it easy to deduce any explanation from the nature or the treatment of them. The name Suttantika means that they are pairs of terms met with in the suttas. This is true and verifiable. But I, for one, cannot venture to predicate anything further respecting them.
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests