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Coyote wrote:I have only a very basic knowledge of abhidhamma terminology, so please bear with me.
I have read that abhidhamma states that painful feeling only arises with akusala citta. (See Sujato "mystique of the abhidhamma"). Since an arahant cannot give rise to akusala citta, this could mean only two things in the case of painful feeling (say he/she stepped on a pin), especially in light of suttas like SN 36:6.
1. The painful feeling would arise, but be regarded with kusala citta together with equanimity.
2. The painful feeling itself would be considered neutral feeling. What would ordinarily be considered painful feeling would actually arise as neutral feeling.
3. Or is it something else?
This has been bugging me for a while so any answers are very much appreciated.
robertk wrote:Dear coyote
Actually painful feeling arises with only some akusala cittas- namely those associated with dosa.
It also arises with some bodily feeling which is vipaka citta , not akusala, and an Arahat may have numerous painful bodily feelings.
Painful feeling is always painful even for an Arahat.
robertk wrote:Yes an Arahat may experience bodily painful feeling -which is still mental -but directly associated with body.
But he does not have any of the painful feelings associated with aversion that we run of the mill people have so often.
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert.
...when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament; he does not weep beating his chest and become distraught. He feels one feeling--a bodily feeling, not a mental one. Suppose they were to strike a man with a dart, but they would not strike him immediately afterwards with a second dart, so that the man would feel a feeling caused by one dart only. So too, when the instructed noble disciple is contacted by a painful feeling.... he feels one feeling--a bodily one, not a mental one.
Being contacted by that same painful feeling, he harbours no aversion towards it. Since he harbours no aversion towards painful feeling, the underlying tendency to aversion towards painful feeling does not lie behind this.....He understands as it really is the origin and the passing away....
randall wrote:. These javanas are not fixed, they can be kusala or akusala(kiryia for arahats) based on the "wise attention or unwise attention"(yoniso manasikara) we have at that moment(s) of "experience".
An arahat can experience the painful feeling(first dart) but their mental reaction(second dart) will only go as far as neutral feeling due to having all unwholesome cittas abandoned due to cutting off the 10 fetters. It should be noted that the cittas that arise for an arahat are kiriya(functional cittas) and they have no kammic potency, while the cittas that arise for everyone else are still subjected to kamma.
Visuddhimagga, XVII, 238
But, monks, the well-taught Ariyan disciple,
when touched by painful feeling,
weeps not, wails not, cries not aloud,
knocks not the breast, falls not into utter bewilderment.
He feels but one feeling, the bodily, not the mental...
If he feels a feeling that is pleasant,
he feels it as one freed from bondage.
If he feels a feeling that is painful,
he feels it as one that is freed from bondage.
If he feels a neutral feeling,
he feels it as one that is freed from bondage.
This well-taught Ariyan disciple, monks,
is called 'freed from the bondage of birth, old age,
from sorrow and grief,
from woe, lamentation and despair,
freed from the bondage of dukkha.' So I declare....'
can it be said that at the point of javana (impulsion) the person (arahat) has the possibility to decide what will happen to the incoming "impuls" ?
When an Arahant experiences an extremely desirable object, his javanas occur as one of the four functional cittas accompanied by joy....when he experiences an undesirable or desirable-neutral object, the javanas occur accompanied by equanimity.......However, with the appropriate mental determination, an Arahant can arouse cittas accompanied by equanimity towards an extremely desirable object and cittas accompanied by joy towards an undesirable object.
Bhikkhus, there are these four inversions of perception, inversions of mind, and inversions of view. What four? (1)The inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes impermanent to be permanent; (2)the inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is suffering to be pleasurable; (3)the inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is non-self to be self; (4)the inversion of perception, mind, and view that takes what is unattractive to be attractive. These are the four inversions of perception, mind, and view....
Perceiving permanence in the impermanent,
perceiving pleasure in what is suffering,
perceiving a self in what is non-self,
beings resort to wrong views,
their minds deranged, their perception twisted.
Such people are bound by the yoke of Mara,
and do not reach security from bondage.
Beings continue in samsara,
going to birth and death...
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