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Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:32 am
by Wind
I was wondering if the Abhidhamma spoke about how realms are constructed? If it's a actual plane of existence or mental construct... etc.. ?

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:40 am
by Anicca
Wind wrote:I was wondering if the Abhidhamma spoke about how realms are constructed? If it's a actual plane of existence or mental construct... etc.. ?
Howdy Wind!

Read here on page 189.

Metta

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:44 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

Is the correlation of different jhanas with differental realms of experience commented upon in the Abhidhamma (Pitaka or commentary)?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:22 am
by Anicca
Howdy Retro!
retrofuturist wrote:Is the correlation of different jhanas with differental realms of experience commented upon in the Abhidhamma (Pitaka or commentary)?
All 5 of them are listed in The CMA at the above link! Page 186 has a table and there is text elsewhere.

Metta

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:31 am
by retrofuturist
Thanks Anicca,

I started before at page 189 and read forwards from there.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:24 am
by Ben
Actually, from page 185.
Then on p. 188:
Guide to 2
The compendium of process-freed consciousness opens with a rurvey of the topography of the phenomenal world, charting the planes of existence and the various realms within each plane. (See Table 5.1). The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind, registering in concrete manifest form the subtle gradations in states of consciousness...
...the outer world is always a world apprehended by consciousness, and the type of consciousness determines the nature of the world that appears. Consciousness and the world are mutually dependent and inextriably connected to such an extent that the hierarchical structure of the realms of existence exactly reproduces and corresponds to the hierarchical structure of consciousness.
Because of this correspondence, each of the two, the objective hierarchy of existence and the inner gradation of consciousness, provides the key to understanding the other. The reason why a living being is reborn into a particular realm is because he has generated, in a previous life, the kamma or volitional force of consciousness that leads to the rebirth into that realm, and thus the final analysis all the realms of activity of existence are formed, fashioned, and sustained by the mental activity of living beings. At the same time these realms provide the stage for consciousness to continue its evolution in a new personality and under a fresh set of circumstances
kind regards

Ben

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:30 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,
The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind
Does it? :shock:

Really?

What does that mean exactly?

The way I'm reading it, it sounds a bit back-to-front. How does the external universe be an "outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind" when there's a 1 to many relationship between "the external universe" and the "internal cosmos of mind"? Do we each have our own private "external universe"? How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:34 am
by Wind
Ben wrote:Actually, from page 185.
Then on p. 188:
Guide to 2
The compendium of process-freed consciousness opens with a rurvey of the topography of the phenomenal world, charting the planes of existence and the various realms within each plane. (See Table 5.1). The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind, registering in concrete manifest form the subtle gradations in states of consciousness...
...the outer world is always a world apprehended by consciousness, and the type of consciousness determines the nature of the world that appears. Consciousness and the world are mutually dependent and inextriably connected to such an extent that the hierarchical structure of the realms of existence exactly reproduces and corresponds to the hierarchical structure of consciousness.
Because of this correspondence, each of the two, the objective hierarchy of existence and the inner gradation of consciousness, provides the key to understanding the other. The reason why a living being is reborn into a particular realm is because he has generated, in a previous life, the kamma or volitional force of consciousness that leads to the rebirth into that realm, and thus the final analysis all the realms of activity of existence are formed, fashioned, and sustained by the mental activity of living beings. At the same time these realms provide the stage for consciousness to continue its evolution in a new personality and under a fresh set of circumstances
kind regards

Ben

Wow. That's interesting. Sounds kinda like Quantum reality in action.

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:38 am
by Ben
Ah well...
I wouldn't say that!
Theres a couple of threads, Wind, regarding the inappropriateness of comparing this or that aspect of the Dhamma to quantum mechanics.
A number of our members are mathematicians and physicists and they've put in some great contributions on the subject.
kind regards

Ben

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:39 am
by Wind
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
The author undertakes this survey before examining the types of process-freed consciousness because the external universe, according to the Abhidhamma, is an outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind
Does it? :shock:

Really?

What does that mean exactly?

The way I'm reading it, it sounds a bit back-to-front. How does the external universe be an "outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind" when there's a 1 to many relationship between "the external universe" and the "internal cosmos of mind"? Do we each have our own private "external universe"? How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?

Metta,
Retro. :)
Here retro check out Quantum Reality. It is quite similar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qL1OKrs-q4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, there is a theory call Biocentrism which also theories that the universe does not create consciousness but it's the opposite, consciousness create the the universe.

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:44 am
by Wind
Ben wrote:Ah well...
I wouldn't say that!
Theres a couple of threads, Wind, regarding the inappropriateness of comparing this or that aspect of the Dhamma to quantum mechanics.
A number of our members are mathematicians and physicists and they've put in some great contributions on the subject.
kind regards

Ben
At this stage it might be prematurely to compare to quantum mechanics, but it's always good to keep an open mind to see what new discoveries comes about as this field is very new and still developing. :) Quantum Reality is goes on a bit further philosophically. It is interesting to see renowned Physicist in the video discussing reality that has some similarities to Buddhism. Of course these things should be taken with a grain of salts as it's merely theory. Still interesting nonetheless.

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:20 am
by Anicca
Howdy Retro!
retrofuturist wrote:What does that mean exactly?
Mind over matter.

Let's say you are an Arahant and i am a mundane worldling. We are standing side-by-side looking out at the universe. You experience your reality - nibbana and i experience mine - delusion. Same external - different internal. One (universe) to many (individuals).
retrofuturist wrote:How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?
Bad kamma :tongue:.

Metta

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:21 am
by Ben
Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:How does the external universe be an "outer reflection of the internal cosmos of mind" when there's a 1 to many relationship between "the external universe" and the "internal cosmos of mind"? Do we each have our own private "external universe"? How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?
I think they are interesting questions which should be put to the author of those statements, Bhikkhu Bodhi.
I for one do not have a problem co-existing in a realm with other beings who also share the same quality of consciousness.
Though they may not feel so accomodating about me being in their universe!
Kind regards

Ben

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:24 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Anicca,
Anicca wrote:Let's say you are an Arahant and i am a mundane worldling. We are standing side-by-side looking out at the universe. You experience your reality - nibbana and i experience mine - delusion. Same external - different internal. One (universe) to many (individuals).
Yes, but that's two different "internal universes" (a.k.a. "loka", or perhaps on might say "lokuttara" re: the arahant)... and to me that makes sense.

That says nothing of this "external universe" out there, of which Bhikkhu Bodhi speaks.

Frankly, I'm really surprised by this. I thought it was only the Tibetans (and possibly Hindus) who thought the objective "external universe" was created by the mind. I'm wondering whether what Bhikkhu Bodhi says has official old school commentarial support.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Does the Abidhamma speak about the different realms?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:27 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Ben, Anicca, all,
Ben wrote:I think they are interesting questions which should be put to the author of those statements, Bhikkhu Bodhi.
I for one do not have a problem co-existing in a realm with other beings who also share the same quality of consciousness.
Well you do share this "external universe" at least with creatures from other "realms", such as that frightful looking creature currently acting as your avatar!
Ben wrote:Though they may not feel so accomodating about me being in their universe!
:lol:
Anicca wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:How do you exist in mine, and vice versa?
Bad kamma :tongue:.
:lol:

Metta,
Retro. :)