Kathavatthu

[Wizard in the Forest]

What were some important points that were refuted (out of the 252 points of contention) in the Kathavatthu?

I don't see many places where I can get a translation of the Kathavatthu and the only one I found online was in Pali, and I'm not good enough with the language to feel confident to read it all. What were some points brought up?

[Annapurna]

Here is the Kathavatthu suttha:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

But I don't understand why you want to refute points in that suttha? Don't you agree with it?

A

[cooran]

Hello Annapurna,

This topic is in the Abhidhamma sub-forum.

Kathāvatthu (Pāli) (abbrev. Kv, Kvu), translated as "Points of Controversy", is a Buddhist scripture, one of the seven books in the Theravada Abhidhamma Pitaka. The text contrasts the orthodox Theravada position on a range of issues to the heterodox views of various interlocutors; the latter are not identified in the primary source text, but were speculatively identified with specific schools of thought in the (historically subsequent) commentaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathavatthu

with metta
Chris

[Wizard in the Forest]

There's no illustration of the points in the wiki. That's why I asked about it.

[cooran]

Hello Wizard,

There isn’t much translated and online. Pariyatti (if in North America) or the Pali Text Society Websites may be helpful – but possibly expensive unless vitally interested.

Your best bet is to join Dhammastudygroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/ if you aren’t already a member, and go to their Files section. Click on ‘’ Useful_Posts_2010-12.htm - Useful posts (with links) updated December 2010’’ and read any threads listed under ''K'' on Katavatthu.
Many members of Dhammastudygroup are well-versed in the intricacies of the the Abhidhamma and commentaries, and I find them a very valuable resource.

With metta
Chris

[Kare]

The best and most detailed information about Kathavatthu is probably found in Nyanatiloka: "Guide to the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=2539

[cooran]

Hello Kare,

Thanks for your recommendation. I've ordered it as a Christmas Present for myself.

with metta
Chris

[Kare]

Hello Kare,

Thanks for your recommendation. I've ordered it as a Christmas Present for myself.

with metta
Chris

You deserve it - not at least for all those jokes that have kept me chuckling ...

Merry Christmas - or in Norwegian: God Jul! ("Good Yule")

[Wizard in the Forest]

Those jokes are adorable by the way. I'm not good at jokes, which is why I posted the link for nerd jokes


But I will take a look at this commentary on the Abhidhamma.

[pt1]

Hi, kathavatthu and its commentary were translated and published by PTS as "Points of controversy" and "The debates commentary" :
http://www.palitext.com/

From their Translations page:
http://www.palitext.com/palitext/tran.htm

Points of Controversy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1915, 1993 ISBN 002 9 £23.65
...
The Debates Commentary, tr. B.C. Law, 1940, 1989 ISBN 019 3 £20.60

Not sure if this is pricey, but once you buy their books, you generally end up using them for decades. And they are always a great gift/donation. Also, if you become a member of PTS, I think you get from them a free book of your choosing once a year.

Also, if you have a big library close by (and in particular a university library with a department for Asian studies or something like that) they might have a lot of PTS books that you can borrow. Mine for example has pretty much the entire canon and many of the commentary translations by PTS.

NOt sure if there's another English translations of kathavatthu, though I think Ven.Pannasikhara mentioned that there's a working translation by Conze, which is easier to follow than the PTS translation (which can be difficult since it's about a hundred years old).

Regarding dsg, this is the direct link to the current Useful posts file:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... _Posts.htm

As Chris mentioned, you'd need to become a member of the group to access it.

Best wishes

[cooran]

The best and most detailed information about Kathavatthu is probably found in Nyanatiloka: "Guide to the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=2539

Great good luck!! I ordered the Guide to the Abhidhamma Pitaka over the Net on the 15th December (Oz time). It was coming from Ilford in Essex, U.K. ... so given the inclement British weather with flights cancelled due to heavy snowfalls, I expected it to take quite a few weeks. But, it arrived in my letter box in Brisbane Australia today 21/12 2010. 6 days!!

with metta
Chris

[icyteru]

you can read it in my blog.