Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:37 pm

Hello all,

in CMA (chart of pg 288 and said on pg 290) it states that nibbāna is included in dhammāyatana and dhammadhātū .

Shouldn't nibbāna be excluded from any bases (āyatana) and elements(dhātū) because they are conditioned, but nibbāna is unconditioned?


Any ideas?

Thanks,

Alex
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby daverupa » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:44 pm

Nibbana is not conditioned - the attainment of nibbana is conditioned.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4515
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:33 pm

daverupa wrote:Nibbana is not conditioned - the attainment of nibbana is conditioned.



But why something that is not conditioned be included in conditioned thing (such as āyatana or one of 18 elements, dhātū )


IMHO, Nibbāna should not be classified as any of 12 sphere or 18 elements.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:43 pm

Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 115 summaries all elements into two, namely, conditioned elements (sankhata dhatu) and the unconditioned element (asankhata dhatu). Thus, naturally, NIbbana is a dhammadhātū.

As for being a dhammāyatana, Nibbana is known by the mind. It is a sense object. But unlike other sense objects, it is a permanent unconditioned element rather than an impermanent conditioned element.

What is the sense organ (the mind) and the sense consciousness (mano vinnana) is impermanent. But this sense object itself, namely, Nibbana, is permanent because it is the asankhata dhatu.

Please keep in mind: "All sankhara (conditioned things) are impermanent; all sankhara are unsatisfactory but all dhamma are not-self".

Best wishes

:smile:

Siyā pana, bhante, aññopi pariyāyo, yathā ‘dhātukusalo bhikkhū’ti alaṃ vacanāyā’’ti?

Siyā, ānanda. Dve imā, ānanda, dhātuyo – saṅkhatādhātu, asaṅkhatādhātu

But venerable sir, might there be another way in which a monk can be called skilled in the elements?

There might be, Ananda. There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.

When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.

MN 115
Vossaga (Element)
 

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Alex123 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:30 pm

Hello Vossaga,

Thank you very much for your reply,

Vossaga wrote:Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 115 summaries all elements into two, namely, conditioned elements (sankhata dhatu) and the unconditioned element (asankhata dhatu). Thus, naturally, NIbbana is a dhammadhātū.


Word dhātū was used in many contexts, not just 18 elements (dhātū) . So I am not sure that asaṅkhatādhātu (of 2 elements classification) has to correlate with dhammadhātū of 18 elements classification.



As for being a dhammāyatana, Nibbana is known by the mind. It is a sense object. But unlike other sense objects, it is a permanent unconditioned element rather than an impermanent conditioned element.


I though that Nibbāna was not a sense object?

Also, another question then: What is the difference between "experience of" Nibbāna that is known by the mind, and Nibbāna that is attained when Arhat dies?

As I understand it, Nibbāna is cessation of everything. It is not something that can be directly experienced because there is nothing to experience.

With metta,

Alex
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:48 am

Alex123 wrote:As I understand it, Nibbāna is cessation of everything. It is not something that can be directly experienced because there is nothing to experience.

Sure. Your understanding is common. However, where such views fall under 'Dhamma' I do not know because Nibbana in the suttas is something experienced. Of his Dhamma, the Buddha said: "Opanayiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi: to be experienced by the wise for themselves". Are you aware the 15th stage of Anapanasati is: "He trains himself, I will breathe in experiencing cessation. 'I will breathe out experiencing cessation."?

Tell me, what exact benefit do you expect to obtain by holding such a view that is discordant with the suttas?

Also, there is no need to refer to the common yet inaccurate translation of AN 10.58. AN 10.58 actually states:"Nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti: all dhamma qualities culminate in Nibbana".

The term "pariyosānā" here is the same as in MN 30,which states: "Yā ca kho ayaṃ , brāhmaṇa, akuppā cetovimutti – etadatthamidaṃ, brāhmaṇa, brahmacariyaṃ, etaṃ sāraṃ etaṃ pariyosāna’’nti: Brahmin, this holy is led not for, gain honour and fame, not for endowment of virtues, not for endowment of concentration, and not for the endowment of knowledge and vision. Brahmin, it is for the unshakeable release of mind. This is the essence of the holy life, it is the heartwood and the end [fulfilment; completion] of the holy life."

With metta

:smile:
Vossaga (Element)
 

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Alex123 » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:04 am

Vossaga wrote:Sure. Your understanding is common. However, where such views fall under 'Dhamma' I do not know because Nibbana in the suttas is something experienced. Of his Dhamma, the Buddha said: "Opanayiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi: to be experienced by the wise for themselves". Are you aware the 15th stage of Anapanasati is: "He trains himself, I will breathe in experiencing cessation. 'I will breathe out experiencing cessation."


It is "experienced" like saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ is "experienced".

"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Just like there is no experience while in saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ, same with nibbāna. You know it only after you come out of attainment of it. But with parinibbāna, there is no coming out of it to review it.



As for anapanasati, I understand cessation to refer to cessation of hindrances or negative qualities. It is not yet nibbāna, and it is not the last step.


Tell me, what exact benefit do you expect to obtain by holding such as view that is discordant with the suttas?


My view is fully consistent. I hope you do not subscribe to some kind of eternal unmanifest non-dual consciousness that survives parinibbāna.
"dust to dust...."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:23 am

Alex123 wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."

Alex

I can quote scores of suttas about experiencing Nibbana. In the sutta above, the question is simply asked: ""But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?" The questioner here appears to have asked Sariputta about anupadisesa nibbana rather than about sa-upadisesa nibbana.

As for your opinion there is no experience while in saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ, does this accord with the Mahavedalla Sutta?, which states:
...in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his faculties are exceptionally clear

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


With metta

:smile:

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044
Last edited by Vossaga (Element) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vossaga (Element)
 

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:28 am

Alex123 wrote: parinibbāna.

I have never investigated this term but my sense of it is it is not a higher form of Nibbana. It simply means the death of an arahant.

:smile:
Vossaga (Element)
 

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:31 am

"Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Sutta.htm


:anjali:
Vossaga (Element)
 

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:38 am

Alex123 wrote:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.034.than.html

Alex

The Buddha did not explain core matters in obscure suttas, such as the sutta cited above (which was not spoken by the Buddha, anyway).

The standard definiton of Nibbana is it is the end of greed, hatred & delusion. This is the way Nibbana is intended to be understood.

Best wishes

:namaste:

Bhikkhu, this is a designation for the element of Nibbana: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.

The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.

SN 45.7
Last edited by Vossaga (Element) on Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vossaga (Element)
 

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Vossaga (Element) » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:51 am

Vossaga wrote:Also, there is no need to refer to the common yet inaccurate translation of AN 10.58. AN 10.58 actually states:"Nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti: all dhamma qualities culminate in Nibbana".

Oops! It appears my posts are inappropriate for this forum. This is the Classical Mahavihara Theravada form. Sorry.

:smile: :namaste:
Vossaga (Element)
 

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:09 am

:focus:
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
 
Posts: 14812
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby diligence » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:18 am

Please keep in mind: "All sankhara (conditioned things) are impermanent; all sankhara are unsatisfactory but all dhamma are not-self".

Could you please explain why not "all sankhara" are not-self but "all dhamma" are not-self? What is the difference? :thinking:

Thank you very much!
Were it not for the Vinaya, and for those who continue to keep it alive to this day, there would be no Buddhism.
diligence
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:21 am

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby acinteyyo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:19 pm

diligence wrote:Please keep in mind: "All sankhara (conditioned things) are impermanent; all sankhara are unsatisfactory but all dhamma are not-self".

Could you please explain why not "all sankhara" are not-self but "all dhamma" are not-self? What is the difference? :thinking:

Thank you very much!

Take a look at this A.3.137 saṅkhārā - dhammā

best wishes, acinteyyo
Last edited by acinteyyo on Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
User avatar
acinteyyo
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby diligence » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:11 am

Sadhu! Sadhu! Thank you soooo much, acinteyyo(forgive my not knowing how to address you properly)! I've just seen your great relpy. I'll read it carefully after I come back.

:anjali:
Were it not for the Vinaya, and for those who continue to keep it alive to this day, there would be no Buddhism.
diligence
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:21 am

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby diligence » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:22 am

Dharma includes sankhare dhamma(conditioned dhammas) and visankhara dhamma(unconditioned dhamma, i.e. nibbana). The former is anicca, dukkha and anatta. The latter, which is nibbana, is not annicca and dukkha but also anatta.
Did I understand that correctly? (as you can see English is not my native language :embarassed: )

with metta
:anjali:
Were it not for the Vinaya, and for those who continue to keep it alive to this day, there would be no Buddhism.
diligence
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:21 am

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby acinteyyo » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:20 pm

Yes, you did.
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:
User avatar
acinteyyo
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Neuburg/Donau, Germany

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby diligence » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:22 am

:thanks: Sadhu! Sadhu! :anjali:
Were it not for the Vinaya, and for those who continue to keep it alive to this day, there would be no Buddhism.
diligence
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:21 am

Re: Why is Nibbāna included in mental object base/element?

Postby Gena1480 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:55 am

condition element is impermanence, suffering, not-self, condition element is rooted in delusion
unconditioned is not-self and not rotted in delusion
what happens to delusion when some one reaches not-delusion?
what happens to samsara when someone is out of samsara?
does samsara have effect from nibbana
since nibbana has no arising an ceasing it should not effect arising and ceasing
if its effects then it seen
samsara as citta factor/object, mental factor/object and rupa factor/object
all tains is in samsara
taints are eliminated by citta
for example you have a memory of sensual desire
and you have memory of nibbana
one citta eliminated the other
so in this way nibbana can be seen is mental obect/memory of nibbana
Gena1480
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 am

Next

Return to Abhidhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: paul and 2 guests