Moderator: Mahavihara moderator
daverupa wrote:Nibbana is not conditioned - the attainment of nibbana is conditioned.
Siyā pana, bhante, aññopi pariyāyo, yathā ‘dhātukusalo bhikkhū’ti alaṃ vacanāyā’’ti?
Siyā, ānanda. Dve imā, ānanda, dhātuyo – saṅkhatādhātu, asaṅkhatādhātu
But venerable sir, might there be another way in which a monk can be called skilled in the elements?
There might be, Ananda. There are, Ananda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.
When he knows and sees these two elements, a monk can be called skilled in the elements.
Vossaga wrote:Majjhima Nikaya Sutta 115 summaries all elements into two, namely, conditioned elements (sankhata dhatu) and the unconditioned element (asankhata dhatu). Thus, naturally, NIbbana is a dhammadhātū.
As for being a dhammāyatana, Nibbana is known by the mind. It is a sense object. But unlike other sense objects, it is a permanent unconditioned element rather than an impermanent conditioned element.
Alex123 wrote:As I understand it, Nibbāna is cessation of everything. It is not something that can be directly experienced because there is nothing to experience.
Vossaga wrote:Sure. Your understanding is common. However, where such views fall under 'Dhamma' I do not know because Nibbana in the suttas is something experienced. Of his Dhamma, the Buddha said: "Opanayiko paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi: to be experienced by the wise for themselves". Are you aware the 15th stage of Anapanasati is: "He trains himself, I will breathe in experiencing cessation. 'I will breathe out experiencing cessation."
Tell me, what exact benefit do you expect to obtain by holding such as view that is discordant with the suttas?
Alex123 wrote:"Furthermore, there is the case where a monk, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."
...in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided & his faculties are exceptionally clear
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044
Alex123 wrote: parinibbāna.
"Here, ruler of gods, a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to. When a bhikkhu has heard that nothing is worth clinging to, he directly knows everything; having directly known everything, he fully understands everything; having directly known everything, he fully understood everything, whatever feeling he feels, whether pleasant or painful or neither pleasant or painful, he abides contemplating (observing) impermanence in those feelings, contemplating (observing) fading away, contemplating (observing) cessation, contemplating (observing) relinquishment (letting go). Contemplating (observing) thus, he does not cling to anything in the world. When he does not cling, he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... _Sutta.htm
Bhikkhu, this is a designation for the element of Nibbana: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.
The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.
Vossaga wrote:Also, there is no need to refer to the common yet inaccurate translation of AN 10.58. AN 10.58 actually states:"Nibbānapariyosānā sabbe dhammā’ti: all dhamma qualities culminate in Nibbana".
diligence wrote:Please keep in mind: "All sankhara (conditioned things) are impermanent; all sankhara are unsatisfactory but all dhamma are not-self".
Could you please explain why not "all sankhara" are not-self but "all dhamma" are not-self? What is the difference?
Thank you very much!