Mr. Grimnasty wrote: robertk wrote:
are there other ways for uninstructed worldlings to reliably know that kamma and rebirth are true?
That is what the first post in this thread explains.
Okay, but could I ask you to say a little more on this topic. You stated: "Actually in the vipassana nanas one of the earlier stages is called paccayapariggahanana, meaning that it is seen that every moment is conditioned by other moments (including kamma)."
Now presumably in the moment a person gets to paccayapariggahanana she doesn't literally see EVERY moment in that particular moment, right? So would it be correct to say that the epistemic status of her new-found knowledge is inferential? In other words, at paccayapariggahanana she sees with insight dhamma-x conditioning the arising of dhamma-y, and then she extrapolates to conclude that every arising of a y is conditioned by an x.
Or are you saying that there is no inferring here at all, but that a knowledge of the universal applicability of what the person sees is in fact intrinsic to paccayapariggahanana, i.e. the moment she sees with insight an instance of x conditioning y she infallibly knows that all y's arise from x's?
If the former, how might her inference be defended against the charge of being simply a bloated conclusion?
Great questions that would even tax the ancients, I presume.
The vipassana nanas, as I think you know, are the product of deep aand deepening wisdom, uncontrollable, and unstoppable if wisdom is developed. But they occur in flashedsof mindoor processes that clearly distinguish very precisely nama from rupa until even the causes and effects of nama and rupa are discerned. It is not like usual moments of daily life, it is irreversible direct seeing that there is only nama and rupa, no self.
Yet even with these profound moments where this seemingly solid world is overturned is only a glimpse into kamma and result- compared to what a Buddha knows:
Vis (section on purification by overcoming doubt)
.17. The succession of kamma and its result in the twelve classes of kamma is
clear in its true nature only to the Buddhas’ “knowledge of kamma and its
result,” which knowledge is not shared by disciples.6 But the succession of
kamma and its result can be known in part by one practicing insight.
So by seeeing directly, so profoundly, although weakly , the actual elemental conditions, all doubt about past and future is uprooted:
18. When he has thus seen by means of the round of kamma and the round of
kamma-result how mentality-materiality’s occurrence is due to a condition, he
sees that as now, so in the past, its occurrence was due to a condition by means
of the round of kamma and the round of kamma-result, and that in the future its
occurrence will be due to a condition by means of the round of kamma and the
round of kamma-result.
Yet it must be admitted that inference plays its part in the sense that one who is not a Buddha cannot know past moment trillions of aeons ago, nor aeons ahead in the future. Yet the confidence in Dhamma and conditionality is deeper , for the one who sees this than even for one skilled in samatha who can see past lives.
The one who sees past lives- due to true samatha- might still wonder if before the period of time, perhaps millions of lives ago, that he has access to, there was some God or evolution, or big bang that started it all. His doubt is not fully removed .
The vipassana adept has seen the conditionality too directly, he knows that there is no God or chance occurnece behind the arising of becoming:
Vis> In all kinds of becoming, generation, destiny, station, and abode there appears
only mentality-materiality, which occurs by means of linking of cause with fruit.
He sees no doer over and above the doing, no experiencer of the result over and
above the occurrence of the result. But he sees clearly with right understanding
that the wise say “doer” when there is doing and “experiencer” when there is
experiencing simply as a mode of common usage.
20. Hence the Ancients said:
There is no doer of a deed
Or one who reaps the deed’s result;
Phenomena alone flow on—
No other view than this is right.
And so, while kamma and result
Thus causally maintain their round,
As seed and tree succeed in turn,
No first beginning can be shown.
Nor in the future round of births