Dhammapada Resources

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Dhammapada Resources

Postby cooran » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:06 am

Hello all,

Translations of the Dhammapada:

In keeping with Ajahn's comments elsewhere, I have left off the translations of:
Dhammapada translations to be avoided:

* Translations by North American poets who don't know a word of Pali. E.g., Thomas Byrom.
* Translations by western monks who do know Pali but erringly imagine themselves to be poets. E.g., Khantipālo, Thanissaro.
* Translations by Indians who have a Vedantist axe to grind. E.g., Radhakrishnan.
* Translations by men called Thomas. E.g., Thomas W. Rhys Davids, Thomas Cleary, Thomas Byrom


http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... t&p=451082


The Dhammapada The Buddha's Path of Wisdom Translated from the Pali by Acharya Buddharakkhita
Introduction by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html

Treasury of Truth - illustrated Dhammapada ~ Ven. W. Sarada Maha Thero
http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/index.htm

1986 THE DHAMMAPADA VERSES & STORIES
Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., 1986
THE DHAMMAPADA COMMENTARY
Translated by the Department of Pali University of Rangoon, Burma 1966

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/dhmapada.htm

The Dhammapada - translator F. Max Muller
http://ebooks.ebookmall.com/title/dhamm ... ebooks.htm

metta
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:18 am

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the list.

I believe Ven Dhammanando also approved of:
THE DHAMMAPADA
PALI TEXT AND TRANSLATION WITH STORIES IN BRIEFAND NOTES
BY NARADA THERA
http://metta.lk/english/Narada/index.htm

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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby zavk » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:00 am

Hey thanks for this Chris.

I was contemplating getting Muller's translation for my iPhone. I will get it now.

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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:11 pm

hi Chris

* Translations by North American poets who don't know a word of Pali. E.g., Thomas Byrom.

how do you know they don't know a word of Pali, and not just using a method which they are use too?

* Translations by western monks who do know Pali but erringly imagine themselves to be poets. E.g., Khantipālo, Thanissaro.

how do you know they are imagining themselves to be poets? and not just put their knowledge and understanding of the phrases accross

* Translations by men called Thomas. E.g., Thomas W. Rhys Davids, Thomas Cleary, Thomas Byrom[/color][/b]

whats wrong with the name Thomas? what if a thomas translated it better than has been done before, should it be discarded?

I'll stick to reading what is available and only discard things which I find not to be useful, instead of reading what others think is useful.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby cooran » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:37 pm

Hello Manapa,

I totally trust Dhammanando Bhikkhu as a Pali and Buddhist Scriptural scholar. I included the link to the thread where he stated the following at E-S:

In keeping with Ajahn's comments elsewhere, I have left off the translations of:

Dhammanando Bhikkhu said:
Dhammapada translations to be avoided:

* Translations by North American poets who don't know a word of Pali. E.g., Thomas Byrom.
* Translations by western monks who do know Pali but erringly imagine themselves to be poets. E.g., Khantipālo, Thanissaro.
* Translations by Indians who have a Vedantist axe to grind. E.g., Radhakrishnan.
* Translations by men called Thomas. E.g., Thomas W. Rhys Davids, Thomas Cleary, Thomas Byrom


http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... t&p=451082

If you don't agree, and can defend the translations and your pov, please state your case in detail. I would be interested to read it, and see what Ajahn Dhammanando has to say.

metta
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:09 pm

Manapa wrote:hi Chris

* Translations by North American poets who don't know a word of Pali. E.g., Thomas Byrom.

how do you know they don't know a word of Pali, and not just using a method which they are use too?


Whether he knows Pali or not, it is not a very good translation. There are better.

* Translations by western monks who do know Pali but erringly imagine themselves to be poets. E.g., Khantipālo, Thanissaro.

how do you know they are imagining themselves to be poets? and not just put their knowledge and understanding of the phrases accross


If you read their translations, you see they are trying very hard to put the text into a poetic verse form. It is successful. Well, as I have said, there are better translations.

* Translations by men called Thomas. E.g., Thomas W. Rhys Davids, Thomas Cleary, Thomas Byrom

whats wrong with the name Thomas? what if a thomas translated it better than has been done before, should it be discarded?


Nothing is wrong with the name Thomas. It just happens that some very bad translation have been done by guys with that name.

I'll stick to reading what is available and only discard things which I find not to be useful, instead of reading what others think is useful.


It is worth several translations, but it is also worth getting good ones recommended by people who might know of what they speak.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:45 pm

Does anyone know where to get a hardcover copy of Narada Thera's Dhammapada?
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

Uposatha Observance Club:http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=148031379279&v=info
Kiva-Theravada Buddhists:http://www.kiva.org/team/theravada_buddhists
Dana on the Interwebs:
http://greatergood.com
http://freerice.com
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby cooran » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:46 am

Hello Khalil Bodhi,

You can buy it online here:
Dhammapad by Narada Thera
The Dhammapada consists of four hundred and twenty three melodious Pali verses, uttered by the Buddha on about three hundred occasions, to suit the temperaments of the listeners in the course of his preaching tours during his ministry of forty five years. This book is the hand book of Buddhists. It should be re-read. Then it may serve as a constant companion for inspiration, solace and edification in times of need.
There are twenty six Vaggas in the Dhammapada and each Vagga has a specific topic. The verses of each Vagga have great meanings according to the topic and each verse has a story. This book presents the Pali verses, the meanings and the stories to an order.
The author has included the Pali Alphabet at the very start of the book.
$ 10 Online Item Code B818
http://buddhistcc.net/bookshop/book_info.asp?bid=279

metta
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:26 am

Thank you much Chris. Mettaya.
To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas.
-Dhp. 183

Uposatha Observance Club:http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=148031379279&v=info
Kiva-Theravada Buddhists:http://www.kiva.org/team/theravada_buddhists
Dana on the Interwebs:
http://greatergood.com
http://freerice.com
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby sukhamanveti » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:11 am

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much for the information. I am still collecting Dhammapada translations.

Two of the four Dhammapada translations that I own are by highly regarded translators. I think it is possible that Ven. Dhammanado might approve. One is the 1995 edition of the translation by Ven. Ananda Maitreya with language updated by semanticist Rose Kramer. (Ven. Ananda Maitreya Thera was "the Supreme Chief of the Amarapura sect" in Sri Lanka and one of the teachers of Bhikkhu Bodhi.) The other is the 2000 (corrected) edition of The Word of the Doctrine, translated by the Pali scholar K.R. Norman. It has a very informative introduction and copious notes in the back, addressing Norman's choices in translating the text.

EDIT: I corrected the title of Norman's translation with the insertion of "the."
Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:52 am

hi Chris,
my sole POV is Ehipasiko. I have no interest in defending, people use the most familiar method to them or the best way they think to put their understanding across, they are more than capable of defending themselves if they want to.

I am not going to disregard one translation just because someone says they are to be avoided, or because the translator has a good or bad reputation, I will disregard a translation because I don't find it useful. your trust comment reminds me of a passage in the Kalama sutta BTW.

but the question everyone should ask themselves is, what is more important scriptural accuracy, or developing understanding.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:08 pm

Hi Tilt,

the proof is in the pudding. not the recommendation of the pudding.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:06 pm

the proof is in the pudding. not the recommendation of the pudding.


Then eat, by all means. You have a list of bad translations; buy them and read in comparison with the recommended good translations.

On the other hand when someone who is highly knowledgeable, such a Ven D, recommends, that can be a good, helpful thing. Any reason for not listening and taking such recommendations?

Also, in reading a bad translation that you find "helpful," how do you know you are not being lead astray by it?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:52 pm

Hi Tilt,
where have I said, not to accept recommendations? I have not said that, "instead of reading what others think is useful" is not saying not too heed recommendations. and whom do you recommend I listen to? those of reputation, those who disparage what they find useless, and praise what they find useful, or those who suggest what they find good without criticising what they don't?
knowledge does not equate understanding, or wisdom, and finding the truth for yourself does mean investigation!

I have actually most of the translations mentioned having ones from both lists on my book shelf, or on file on my computer.

the proof is in the pudding. not the recommendation of the pudding
this means that the effectiveness is not judged by what others say, or accuracy in translation of words, but by what the results of following the practice is.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:24 pm

Some translations are crappy and other are quite good. Not saying that the crappy translations are crappy does not make them less crappy. Until you learn Pali, you are stuck with reading other's translations, and following the Kalama Sutta, listening to the knowledgeable is not a bad thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:53 am

Here's my "favourite" so-bad-it's-good mistranslation+misquotation from the Dhammapada.

This is commonly attributed:
Better your own truth,
however weak,
than the truth of another,
however noble.
Shakyamuni Buddha

This seems to be a rewording of:
The Dhammapada
Translated from the Pali by P. Lal
Verse 166, the last verse in the chapter on "The Self":
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3...VCgfFhIZaHx95JA
Better is your own Dhamma, however weak,
than the Dhamma of another, however noble.
Look after your self, and be firm in your goal.


Other translations make it clear that this verse has quite a different meaning from "make up your own truth":
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn...hp.12.budd.html
166. Let one not neglect one's own welfare for the sake of another, however great. Clearly understanding one's own welfare, let one be intent upon the good.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn...hp.12.than.html
Don't sacrifice your own welfare
for that of another,
no matter how great.
Realizing your own true welfare,
be intent on just that.

[url=http://home.nethere.net/dsparks/narada/index.htm[/url]
http://home.nethere.net/dsparks/narada/ ... 0Vagga.htm
STRIVE FOR YOUR SPIRITUAL WELFARE

For the sake of others' welfare, however great, let not one neglect one's own welfare.* Clearly perceiving one's own welfare, let one be intent on one's own goal.

Story

As the Buddha was about to pass away His disciples flocked from far and near to pay their last respects to Him. A monk named Attadattha instead of joining them, retired to his cell and meditated. The other monks reported this matter to the Buddha. When questioned as to his conduct. the monk replied. "Lord, as you would be passing away three months hence I thought the best way to honour you would be by attaining Arahantship during your lifetime itself." The Buddha praised him for his exemplary conduct and remarked that one's spiritual welfare should not be abandoned for the sake of others.

* Here "welfare" denotes one's ultimate goal, i.e., Nibbàna. Personal sanctification should not be sacrificed for the sake of external homage.
One must not misunderstand this verse to mean that one should not selflessly work for the wealfare of others. Selfless service is highly commended by the Buddha.


By the way, the word, "dhamma" does not seem to appear in the Pali:
Attadattha.m paratthena
bahunaa' pi na haapaye
Attadattham abhi~n~naaya
sadatthapasuto siyaa. 166.


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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby sukhamanveti » Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:30 pm

Manapa wrote: but the question everyone should ask themselves is, what is more important scriptural accuracy, or developing understanding.


Hi Manapa,

Since this part appears to be addressed to everyone, I hope you won't mind if I answer it. If an eclectic approach is helpful to you, then that is good. For me the situation is different. The only "religion" or philosophy that I have found helpful in my experience and the only thing that makes sense to me is Theravada Buddhism. I would like more of the same help and insight, therefore it is important to me to know what is Theravada and what is not. Thus in my situation accuracy and understanding go hand in hand. The teachings of a confused translator seem far less likely to be helpful to me than the teachings of the only system of thought and practice that has been able to begin to transform the way I see, think, feel, and live for the better, that has calmed my anxiety, that has made me hopeful, that has given me joy, that has helped me to love supposedly unlovable people. Nothing else comes even close in my experience. For me that is the answer.

Best regards.

Ed
Sīlaṃ balaṃ appaṭimaṃ.
Sīlaṃ āvudhamuttamaṃ.
Sīlamābharaṇaṃ seṭṭhaṃ.
Sīlaṃ kavacamabbhutaṃ.


Virtue is a matchless power.
Virtue is the greatest weapon.
Virtue is the best adornment.
Virtue is a wonderful armor.

Theragatha 614


Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ,
kusalassa upasampadā,
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ,
etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ.


Refraining from all wrong-doing,
Undertaking the good,
Purifying the mind,
This is the teaching of the buddhas.

Dhammapada v. 183/14.5
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:10 am

Hi sukhamanveti,
Since this part appears to be addressed to everyone, I hope you won't mind if I answer it.

not at all

If an eclectic approach is helpful to you, then that is good. For me the situation is different. The only "religion" or philosophy that I have found helpful in my experience and the only thing that makes sense to me is Theravada Buddhism.

I wouldn't call myself eclectic, but in what sense do you mean? many schools/texts one path, possibly? if so then no, I don't run around reading every text from many traditions, but that doesn't mean I discount other translations of the Suttas because someone thinks they are poor, only once I have seen for myself will I decide to put a translation aside.

I would like more of the same help and insight, therefore it is important to me to know what is Theravada and what is not. Thus in my situation accuracy and understanding go hand in hand. The teachings of a confused translator seem far less likely to be helpful to me than the teachings of the only system of thought and practice that has been able to begin to transform the way I see, think, feel, and live for the better, that has calmed my anxiety, that has made me hopeful, that has given me joy, that has helped me to love supposedly unlovable people. Nothing else comes even close in my experience. For me that is the answer.


are they understanding the meaning or translating because of convention? are they providing their understanding or providing a copy by rote? I know a German man who can speak English perfectly, when he translates writing, it is unintelligible, even thou he knows how to use the language. the mark of understanding is not dependent upon accuracy of words, but accuracy in understanding the meaning of those words, Dhamma is not dependant on ink, paper, and formula for translation.
see the truth for yourself! or accept what I say as truth! which was the Buddha teaching?

P.S. do understand I see for myself whether something is valid or not, I am concerned with the path of the noble ones.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby bodom » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:26 pm

Its hard to believe that no one has mentioned John Ross Carter's translation of the Dhammapada and its commentary which could be argued as the most informative of all the many Dhammapada translations.

The Dhammapada (Paperback)
by John Ross Carter (Translator), Mahinda Palihawadana (Translator)

Review

"Far surpasses any previous translation of the Dhammapada in terms of its scope and contextual accuracy. Carter and Palihawadana have not only provided a fresh English translation of the Pali but a transliteration of the Dhammapada (which makes it eminently useful for students of Pali) and, most impressively, a translation of the exhaustive and extremely commentarial Pali Dhammapadatthakatha....This, then, is a work of wide scholarly magnitude and great philological erudition."--Religious Studies Review

Product Description

The Dhammapada, the Pali version of one of the most popular texts of the Buddhist canon, also ranks among the classics of the world's religious literature. This critical edition presents to the English reader for the first time the Dhammapada as it has been known throughout the centuries. With this volume, Carter and Palihawadana make a major contribution to the understanding of the Dhammapada, not only by presenting a new and accurate translation of the verses, but also by enabling readers to see the wake of this remarkable text through centuries of Buddhist tradition. In addition to the original Pali, the editors provide a translation of the commentary on the verses and the subsequent brief explanations of verse and commentarial passages provided by Sinhala sources.


http://books.google.com/books?id=pvOk7_ ... =1#PPP1,M1

http://www.amazon.com/Dhammapada-John-R ... 0195108604

I also enjoyed Gil Fronsdal's translation very much.

http://www.amazon.com/Dhammapada-Transl ... 0195108604

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Dhammapada Resources

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:35 pm

If one wants recommendations, then give them.
If one does not want recommendations, then don't give them.
Some people want recommendation, some don't.
I do not see what is so difficult here.

If you value recommendations I do not see the point in criticizing others who don't value them.
Likewise, if you do not value recommendations I do not see the point in criticizing others who do value them.
Some value recommendation and some don't.

For my own part...

If I had a leaky roof and a person who makes his profession as a roofer and has a good reputation made a recommendation regarding fixing the roof I would pay him heed.

If I had a bodily pain and a doctor with a good reputation made a recommendation regarding medicine I would pay him heed.

If I wished to study Buddhadhamma and a monk with a good reputation for conduct and knowledge of Pali made a recommendation for reading material I would pay him heed.

Buddhism, after all, is a teaching transmitted by teachers. It started with the Buddha and continues with the Sangha. It is not the case that the Buddha said "There is Nibbana. Go and find it for yourself. I will not guide you." I am thankful for that.

Also, my time and energy is a limited resource; I cannot read every book. As such I am grateful for wise friends who can help me make the most out of my time and energy. However, I can easily see another person with more time and energy would perhaps care to read more book for themselves.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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