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There is nothing in these texts that demands that "an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated" is the only way that these terms are meaningfully translated. I would argue that "an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated" is not a particularly meaningful translation at all, taken either as a stand-alone text as in the Itivuttaka, 37-8 or in this Udana grouping. These Udana texts refer to “unbinding,” and unbinding here means one is not bound to greed, hatred, and delusion. In other words, one is freed from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.
In S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362 we find: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata." That is to say, it is the freedom from the conditioning, being without the conditions, of those three unwholesome factors. As an awake individual one is no longer conditioned – one is unconditioned, asankhata --, by the volitional conditions of greed, hatred, and delusion. It is hard to find a more straightforward definition.
In the S.N. IV 251 and IV 321 we find: "That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana." Clearly nibbana/unbinding and asankhata are equivalent terms, and where outside the individual who is freed from the putting together, the fabricating, the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion would unbinding be found? It would make no sense to assume that unbinding/nibbana refers to something outside the freed individual, given that greed, hatred, and delusion “exist” as conditioning factors only within the individual.
'Herein, which is the unformed element? It is the destruction
of greed, the destruction of hate and the destruction of
robertk wrote:Nibbana does not arise or cease, it is not part of the khandhas, aggregates, it thus cannot be annica or dukkha. It is, however, anatta.
Okay, but don't forget that the "un" words are adjectives. What are they modifying?robertk wrote:There is, monks, an unborn (aj.ta), — unbecome (abh.ta), — unmade (akata),— unfabricated(asa.khata). . If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, emancipation from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned."
— Ud 8.3
robertk wrote:words like uborn, asankhata, amata can also be synonyms (rather than adjectives) of Nibbana.
Zom wrote:There is an interesting note from Ven. Brahmali, that if nibbana is some ultimate-existing-reality apart from matter and mentality, then there shoud be 7th class of consciousness that "knows" it
Zom wrote:Perhaps to lessen difficulties to explain what nibbana is .)
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