Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

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Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby Alobha » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:09 pm

Heyho
I need some help getting a clearer understanding of the Canki Sutta:

Thanissaro Bhikku's translation:http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.095x.than.html
Unknown translator: http://www.vipassana.info/095-canki-e1.htm

The particular passage where the meaning is unclear is the following:

Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote:"Contemplating is most helpful for exertion, Bharadvaja. If one didn't contemplate, one wouldn't make an exertion. Because one contemplates, one makes an exertion. Therefore, contemplating is most helpful for exertion."
"But what quality is most helpful for contemplating?..."
"Being willing... If one weren't willing, one wouldn't contemplate..."
"But what quality is most helpful for being willing?..."
"Desire... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing..."
"But what quality is most helpful for desire?..."


Unknown translator wrote:‘Good Gotama, for struggling, what thing is of much help?
‘Bharadvaaja, interest, is of much help for struggling. Without that interest, there is no struggle, therefore that interest is of much help for struggling.’
‘Good Gotama, for interest, what thing is of much help?
‘Bharadvaaja, rightful speculation (* 3), is of much help for interest.. Without the rightful speculating mind, there is no interest, therefore the rightful speculative mind is of much help for interest.’


Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:25. But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for application of the will? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for application of the will."
"Desire is most helpful for application of the will, Bharadvaja. If one does not arouse desire, one will not apply one's will; but because one arouses desire, one applies one's will. That is why desire is most helpful for application of the will."
26. "But what, Master Goata, is most helpful for desire? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for desire."
"Accepting the teachings as a result of pondering them is most helpful for desire, Bharadvaja. If one does not accept the teachings as a result of pondering them, desire will not spring up; but because one accepts the teachings as a result of pondering them, desire springs up."


As I understand it, the Buddha explains a chain of useful tools in the Canki Sutta (where not noted otherwise, the translation of Bhikkhu Bodhi were used.)

For the arrival at truth --> Striving is most helpful
For striving --> Scrutiny (B.B.) / Contemplating (T.B.) is most helpful
For Scrutiny / Contemplating --> Application of one's will is most helpful
For Application of one's will --> Desire (B.B.) (T.B.) / Interest (Unknown) is most helpful. (?)
For Desire / Interest --> "Accepting the teachings as a result of pondering" them is most helpful
For "Accepting the teachings as a result of pondering" --> Examination of the meaning is most helpful
For Examination of the meaning --> Memorizing the teachings is most helpful
For Memorizing the teachings --> Hearing the Dhamma is most helpful
For Hearing the Dhamma --> Giving ear is most helpful
For Giving ear --> Paying respect is most helpful
For Paying respect --> Visiting is most helpful
For Visiting --> Faith in a teacher is most helpful

It seems unusual to me that Thanissaro Bhikkhu and Bhikkhu Bodhi use the term desire here, where interest made more sense to me. Is this to be understood thus, that desiring to arive at the truth, i.e. a certain longing or craving for nibbana is helpful for applying the mind to examining the truth?
Then again, desire is a term that is usually referd to as tanha, which is an obstruction to insight when one sees desire in the context of craving for the kkhandas. And of course craving for mind objects and the whole field of sankhara-kkhanda is something that obstructs knowledge, too.
So that's why it seems very interesting to me that Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanissaro Bhikkhu use the term desire here.

What's the meaning of desire in the Canki Sutta? Does the Buddha mean that desire is an essential tool for getting drawn to the truth because when we desire the truth, we follow, investigate and pursue it till we "have it" ? It always looked to me like desire is rather not helpful on the path, but this Sutta draws a different picture ie it also matters what we desire. When we desire the freedom from desire, then this is alright at some point ? (taking into account the Buddha spoke to a Brahmin not familiar with his teachings instead of adressing well-instructed monks or Arahants here. So this may be a more coarse level of instruction on how to pursue the path.)
Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation seems the most understandable to me in that respect, as that "aroused desire" precedes applying the will to pursue something. If there would be no interest and no desire for knowing the truth, in wisdom and in understanding, then one wouldn't apply the mind to this and one wouldn't put any effort in contemplating and arriving at the truth.

Do I get that right?

Thanks for the help!
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:47 pm

Alobha wrote:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:25. But what, Master Gotama, is most helpful for application of the will? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for application of the will."
"Desire is most helpful for application of the will, Bharadvaja. If one does not arouse desire, one will not apply one's will; but because one arouses desire, one applies one's will. That is why desire is most helpful for application of the will."
26. "But what, Master Goata, is most helpful for desire? We ask Master Gotama about the thing most helpful for desire."
"Accepting the teachings as a result of pondering them is most helpful for desire, Bharadvaja. If one does not accept the teachings as a result of pondering them, desire will not spring up; but because one accepts the teachings as a result of pondering them, desire springs up."
Interesting, because my translation in Ven Bodhi's MLDB P 783; MN ii 174 has zeal instead of desire. The word in question is chanda:


I.B. Horner uses desire, as well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby vinasp » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:20 am

Hi Alobha,

It seems that craving (tanha) does not cover all desires. There are good desires and
bad desires. The term 'desire' (chanda) is used for the wholesome desires. These include:
the desire to hear the teachings, the desire to practice, and even the desire for
awakening.

See: SN 51.15 Brahmana Sutta - link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:26 am

Maybe exertions is a better (more useful for one or the other) word:

There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent:

for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen...
for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen...
for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen...(and)
for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen.

The Four Right Exertions


PS: Thanks for sharing that sutta Vincent!
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby DAWN » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:25 am

Misfortunely i dont have any sutta, but just to give an image on this subject, delete it if nessecery.

The one is alone in the boat
He have the paddle of desire
He have the sail of awereness
Ha have the mast of belieaf
He have the wind of kamma
He have the wheel of that dirrect his mind

If the one will use the paddle of desire, he will suffer, and will not reach the ground, because is the wind and waves that lead the boat, not the paddle.
So the one have to leave the paddle of desire, and go to the wheel of boat, direct his mind on liberation, direct his boat on the ground, and keep the wind of kamma do his job. All waves lead to the ground. So once the one leave the paddle and get the wheel of boat on right dirrection, he will necessarily join the ground. (Sottapana?)

So when the one desire nibbana he suffer
But when the one just direct his mind on it at and open his sail of awerness all the time, and keep leaving his life, the wind will puch the boat to the ground. It wiil heppens naturaly, without sruggling, without craving, desiring, without paddle. Just by keeping the boat on the right dirrection.

Actualy, koans in zen, have this fonction, to direct the boat, when disciple's mind constantly keep his mind on this koan, and if he keep it rightly, he join the ground.
Sabbe dhamma anatta
We are not concurents...
I'am sorry for my english
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby Hanzze » Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:33 am

That is a nice similie, maybe the bird of navigation is missing. Its in any way good to have a bird before leaving the dockside. Desire can lead to undock a little to early.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby Alobha » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:33 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Interesting, because my translation in Ven Bodhi's MLDB P 783; MN ii 174 has zeal instead of desire. The word in question is chanda:


I.B. Horner uses desire, as well.


I used the translation of Ven Bodhi found in "In the Buddha's Words", not in the MLDB. I find zeal quite cryptic though.


vinasp wrote:Hi Alobha,

It seems that craving (tanha) does not cover all desires. There are good desires and
bad desires. The term 'desire' (chanda) is used for the wholesome desires. These include:
the desire to hear the teachings, the desire to practice, and even the desire for
awakening.

See: SN 51.15 Brahmana Sutta - link:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Regards, Vincent.


Wow, that's a really striking teaching and perfectly answers my question! Thanks very much Vincent! :anjali:
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby daverupa » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:00 pm

I like zeal for chanda, as it means "enthusiasm for a cause". Since this is different than desire, "strong wish or want", I find it quite appropriate.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby gavesako » Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:49 pm

Enthu­si­asm (chanda): an enthu­si­asm for the activ­ity one is engaged in; a keen inter­est in the objec­tive of such an activ­ity; a wish to bring this activ­ity to ful­fil­ment and com­ple­tion; a love for one’s work and for the goal of one’s work. On a deeper level, it is a love and desire for a whole­some, com­plete state, which is the goal of one’s actions or is acces­si­ble through one’s actions; a desire for some­thing to arrive at or be estab­lished in the great­est degree of good­ness, excel­lence, pre­ci­sion, and per­fec­tion; a desire for this whole­some, com­plete state to truly man­i­fest; a desire to find suc­cess con­form­ing to such goodness.

http://www.buddhistteachings.org/enthus ... centration
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Desire for nibbana beneficial? - Canki Sutta

Postby theY » Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:01 am

Namo Sangassa

Right at all.

14. Chanda -

Derived from Ö chad, to wish.

The chief characteristic of chanda is the wish-to-do (kattu-kamyatā). It is like the stretching of the hand to grasp an object.

This unmoral chanda should be distinguished from immoral lobha which is clinging to an object.



There are three kinds of chanda namely,

(i) kāma-cchanda which is sensual craving, one of the Five Hindrances (nīvarana). This is ethically immoral.

(ii) kattu-kamyatā chanda, the mere wish-to-do. This is ethically unmoral. (My comment : It can be kasala, akusala, and abbyakata)

(iii) dhammacchanda, righteous wish. It is this dhammacchanda that impelled Prince Siddhartha to renounce Royal pleasures.

Of them it is kattu-kamyatā chanda, meaning attached to this particular mental state, that serves as one of the four dominant influences (adhipati).

Shwe Zan Aung says - "The effort of conation or will is due to viriya. Pīti signifies an interest in the object; chanda constitutes the intention with respect to object.' (Compendium p. 18).



Buddhists have this dhammacchanda for the realization of Nibbāna. It is not a kind of craving.


thank you : http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_2.htm

To judge these sabhāva, we should know their lakkhaṇādiccatukkas (I post only chanda here, you should see another sampayuttadhammas of [kusala]dhammacchanda in book links.) .-

Chandoti kattukamyatāyetaṃ adhivacanaṃ. Tasmā so kattukamyatālakkhaṇo chando, ārammaṇapariyesanaraso, ārammaṇena atthikatāpaccupaṭṭhāno, tadevassa padaṭṭhāno.


Thank you Abhidhammāvatāra of bhadanta Buddhadatta part 2 number 80:
http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/abh06 ... ml#M0.0025

When you can remembered lakkhaṇādiccatukkas and use them every time, sabhāvas will become clearly--paccakkha, at your mind as much as your pañca-balas can do.

Note : 3 types of chanda come in many sutta, because abhidhamma and atthakathā seem to be dictionaries of sutta.

find it out by yourself.
Lesson Relationship of Abhidhammatthasaṅgaha (10/31/2012)
http://tipitakanews.org/en/node/61
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