Rebirth in clasical theravada

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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kc2dpt
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by kc2dpt »

I was thinking of the Kalama Sutta, but that one's good too. :)
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by jcsuperstar »

i cant think of any pre-20th century teaching mahyana or theravada that is a non literal rebirth teaching or doesnt include rebirth as a part of buddhism.
the earliest example ive read of rebirth as non literal was a transcription of a japanese zen teaching from around WW2 (i think, though it may have been later) that was originally broadcast on japanese radio. after that comes Buddhadasa, who was influenced by zen so..... :shrug:
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Ben
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Ben »

Thanks JC. We'll keep the current discussion focused on the Classical Theravada as per this sub-forum and the intent of the OP.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Jechbi
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Jechbi »

Dhammanando wrote:It is held to be an indispensible doctrine.
...
Kammic efficacy and rebirth are part of mundane right view. To reject or doubt rebirth is to suppose that there are some causes that don't yield effects – specifically, that there can be ignorance and craving that will not issue in further becoming. Those of such a view have not understood the conditionality of dhammas even at the intellectual/pariyatti level. To not understand this is to not understand the four noble truths, the three characteristics, or anything else that is of decisive importance in the development of paññā.
I appreciate Ven. Dhammanando's post and find myself in agreement with every word of it. In that context, I wonder ...
Peter wrote:... it is important to adopt the view that it actually happens.
... What is the classical Theravada position with regard to how one goes about adopting a view that might conflict with views one has had for a long time, perhaps even for many lifetimes? What is the method for adopting this right view?

To clarify this question, I can imagine a situation in which a person has stubborn kamma associated with the view that upon physical death, existence ceases. Or perhaps a person has a stubborn kamma habit associated with the view that upon physical death, an eternal soul continues. Neither of these is mundane right view, yet I can imagine how a person might hear the Dhamma, accept the 4nt and 8fold path to the best of her ability, aspire to practice ardently, yet still observe thoughts of doubt or skepticism popping into the mind with regard to the notion of post-mortem rebirth, due to this stubborn kamma habit.

I had thought that the correct method to address this type of phenomenon would be:
1) To recognize any such thoughts as not right view.
2) To continue with the practices of right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right awareness, right concentration, right intention, and right view to the best of one's ability, recognizing that right view has not been perfected, and that in fact none of these practices has been perfected.
3) And as a result of applying all of these practices, right view will develop according to kamma.

In this respect, I tend to agree with the approach Ben suggests, namely, to set aside for the moment those views that one cannot bring oneself to accept, and to continue on with the rest of practice.

But I wonder if this approach is in line with classical Theravada thought, because an argument seems to be made that the correct method for adopting right view regarding rebirth is to simply accept it, regardless of whether one believes it. To me that seems like putting the cart before the horse, although I stand to be corrected.

What is the classical Theravada position with regard to the correct method for changing one's mundane wrong views regarding rebirth? Or for that matter regarding any other subject?
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Ben
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Ben »

Hi Jechbi

Have a look at the following:
MN 60: Apannaka Sutta: The Incontrovertible Teaching
and...
MN 74: Dighanakha Sutta: To Dighanakha

These probably represent the tip of the iceberg but they are two I have been reading today.

If you don't have Ven Bodhi's translation, please let me know and I'll transcribe the notes.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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mikenz66
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Jechbi wrote: In this respect, I tend to agree with the approach Ben suggests, namely, to set aside for the moment those views that one cannot bring oneself to accept, and to continue on with the rest of practice.

But I wonder if this approach is in line with classical Theravada thought, because an argument seems to be made that the correct method for adopting right view regarding rebirth is to simply accept it, regardless of whether one believes it. To me that seems like putting the cart before the horse, although I stand to be corrected.
If you look at the various Suttas, such as the ones that Ben mentions, it seems clear that the Buddha taught different things to different people, depending on what stage they were at. So if you take that as a model you'd have to say that someone who did could not accept Right View should be reading suttas such as
SN3.15: The simile of the mountains
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"I inform you, great king, I announce to you, great king: aging and death are rolling in on you. When aging and death are rolling in on you, great king, what should be done?"

"As aging and death are rolling in on me, lord, what else should be done but Dhamma-conduct, right conduct, skillful deeds, meritorious deeds?
On a slightly different tack:
I'll need to search for the exact reference, but I recall that there is a warning in the Commentary to at least one of the Suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya that attempting to develop insight without establishing Right View will cause problems (falling into nihilism, as I recall).

Metta
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Jechbi
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Jechbi »

mikenz66 wrote:... attempting to develop insight without establishing Right View will cause problems (falling into nihilism, as I recall).
If right view and right thought are wholly encompassed by paññā, which I think is the classical Theravada position, then how can right view be established without insight?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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mikenz66
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Jechbi wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:... attempting to develop insight without establishing Right View will cause problems (falling into nihilism, as I recall).
If right view and right thought are wholly encompassed by paññā, which I think is the classical Theravada position, then how can right view be established without insight?
I'm sorry, I've spent a little while thumbing through the notes to the SN, but I can't find the passage. Maybe I'm misremembering it, and it's in the Visuddhimagga, so perhaps I'd better start on that...

As Ven Dhammanando says above, we're talking about two different types of Right View, the mundane (accepting kamma, rebirth, etc) and the suppramundane Right View of an Ariya. The second, of course, requires insight.

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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,
Manapa wrote:...due to another group where a similare thread is going on, and a person their seams to hold an almost mahayana Boddhisatva vow view of the importance of rebirth.
Any chance you could provide a link?

Metta,
Retro. :)
It is a private group so I cant unfortunately.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,

No problems... I was hoping it might provide some context, but that's okay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Ben
I am going to edit this in a moment or two but Are the notes in "in the buddhas words"? I have that and MN!

Just going to look on a sutta study site from Australia where the suttas tend to have the notes from bodhi when available so will get the links for a quick look if they are the same ones.
Edit
http://www.vgweb.org/sutta/m74.pdf
They don't have MN60

Ben wrote:Hi Jechbi

Have a look at the following:
MN 60: Apannaka Sutta: The Incontrovertible Teaching
and...
MN 74: Dighanakha Sutta: To Dighanakha

These probably represent the tip of the iceberg but they are two I have been reading today.

If you don't have Ven Bodhi's translation, please let me know and I'll transcribe the notes.
Metta

Ben
Last edited by Cittasanto on Fri Jun 12, 2009 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Manapa,
Manapa wrote: It is a private group so I cant unfortunately.
Perhaps you could give some quotations. It seems a little pointless to mention that someone has some opinion without explaining it...

I really have no idea what you are getting at when you say:
"A person there seems to hold an almost Mahayana Bodhisattva vow view of the importance of rebirth."
Do you just mean that s/he thinks that accepting rebirth is an absolutely essential part of the Path, or is the comparison with Mahayana Bodhisattva vows supposed to have some particular significance?

Metta
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

No problems... I was hoping it might provide some context, but that's okay.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro
The group is small but very active, but it is closed and I think by invite only, I don't think you can just apply to join either?
I used the Boddhisatta/Tulku references to help with context as that is probably the closest that I know of to how strongly this belief is being expressed without the Mahayana overtones.
But I Think I have grasped enough from some of the posts to be able to say I see.

Got to edit one post
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Ben
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Ben »

Hi Manapa
They're in A translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. I don't known whether they're in In the Buddha's Words as I don't yet own a copy of that volume.
I'm in the middle of transcribing the notes to MN 60.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Cittasanto
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Re: Rebirth in clasical theravada

Post by Cittasanto »

I Have just edited the last postt but here is the link to MN74
http://www.vgweb.org/sutta/m74.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

WM
Manapa
Ben wrote:Hi Manapa
They're in A translation of the Majjhima Nikaya. I don't known whether they're in In the Buddha's Words as I don't yet own a copy of that volume.
I'm in the middle of transcribing the notes to MN 60.
Metta

Ben
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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