Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:17 am

danieLion wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
danieLion wrote:So, by your view, sati is "neutral" or "dormant" until will and/or intention direct it towards kusala or akusala?
That is probably the Sarvistivadin view, but not the Theravadin, as robertk has pointed out above.

So does this also exclude the initial decision to walk the path (and I'm sorry, Tilt, but could you please point out to me in which post Robert pointed it out above?
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p227895

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 12#p227913
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Postby robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:44 am

danieLion wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:what about micca sati?

Do you mean what Reverend Mahasi wrote?
Wrong mindfulness is the recollection of worldly matters and unwholesome deeds of the past. Some remember the unwholesome things they did when they were young, their companions, the placesthey visited, their happy days, and so forth. They may be likened to cows chewing the cud at night. These recollections are wrong mindfulness. However, it is not wrong mindfulness when one recognises the mistakes of the past, repents, and resolves not to repeat them in future. Such repentance is right mindfulness. Some monks think of their parents, relatives, native places, and the companionsof their childhood. They recall how they spent their days as laymen. They think of what they have to do for so-and-so. All these recollections of the past are wrong mindfulness. Laymen need not reject thoughts about their sons, daughters, etc., for such recollections are natural. However, while meditating, the meditator should note and reject them. As he sits in his retreat at the meditation centre, noteing the rising and falling of the abdomen or his other bodily movements, “sitting”, “touching”, etc., the meditator recalls what he did formerly, his sayings and doings in his youth, his friends, etc. These are wrong mindfulness and have to be noted and rejected. Some old men and women think of their grandchildren. While noteing their thoughts, they have mental visions of the children near them and they fancy they hear the children calling them. All these have to be noted and expelled. Some meditators felt compelled to return home because they could not overcome these unwholesome thoughts. A meditator’s spiritual effort is often thwarted by wrong mindfulness. In the final analysis a wrong recollection is not a distinct element of consciousness. It is a collection of unwholesome elements in the form of memories concerning worldly and unwholesome things of the past.

Which I presume RobertK disagrees with?

as the Sayadaw points out there is no such 'distinct element ' as miccha sati.
why is it given that name in the suttas that talk about the wrong path.
this is because the other factors such as miccha-ditthi , miccha-samadhi, etc are actual realities with their 'opposites' samma-ditthi, samma-sammadhi and so on.It destroys tHE symmetry of the sutta to exclude sati.

In the sallekha sutta commentary (which I think thE sayadaw took some points from)it says about miccha-sati that
In truth, miccha sati is not
specific to a particular dhamma, but it is a name for the 4
akusala khandha, which arises in one who thinks of the
past. When the Buddha said, "Bhikkhu, the Tatagatha
said that there is miccha sati not that there isn't.
There is sati in those who thinks of gaining sons, gaining'"O
The Buddha meant the
arising of the fake (artificial, untrue, etc.) sati..

I toOk this from a ThaI translation so it might be a bit clumsy
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:22 pm

danieLion wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi DanieLion,
I had just edited that slightly to include [a form of].
But in many respects yes, to me each aspect that makes up the path is by itself, speech, livelihood, perspective, focus, mindfulness... are neutral, and it is only when you are aiming in a particular direction that it becomes skilful or not.

So, by your view, sati is "neutral" or "dormant" until will and/or intention direct it towards kusala or akusala?

I wouldn't say ""neutral" or "dormant" until will and/or intention direct it" but it is effected by our actions so could have a unintended "colouring" based on what one regularly brings to mind.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:27 pm

so is (to borrow the words from the quote) right recollection a distinct element?

robertk wrote:
danieLion wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:what about micca sati?

Do you mean what Reverend Mahasi wrote?
Wrong mindfulness is the recollection of worldly matters and unwholesome deeds of the past. Some remember the unwholesome things they did when they were young, their companions, the placesthey visited, their happy days, and so forth. They may be likened to cows chewing the cud at night. These recollections are wrong mindfulness. However, it is not wrong mindfulness when one recognises the mistakes of the past, repents, and resolves not to repeat them in future. Such repentance is right mindfulness. Some monks think of their parents, relatives, native places, and the companionsof their childhood. They recall how they spent their days as laymen. They think of what they have to do for so-and-so. All these recollections of the past are wrong mindfulness. Laymen need not reject thoughts about their sons, daughters, etc., for such recollections are natural. However, while meditating, the meditator should note and reject them. As he sits in his retreat at the meditation centre, noteing the rising and falling of the abdomen or his other bodily movements, “sitting”, “touching”, etc., the meditator recalls what he did formerly, his sayings and doings in his youth, his friends, etc. These are wrong mindfulness and have to be noted and rejected. Some old men and women think of their grandchildren. While noteing their thoughts, they have mental visions of the children near them and they fancy they hear the children calling them. All these have to be noted and expelled. Some meditators felt compelled to return home because they could not overcome these unwholesome thoughts. A meditator’s spiritual effort is often thwarted by wrong mindfulness. In the final analysis a wrong recollection is not a distinct element of consciousness. It is a collection of unwholesome elements in the form of memories concerning worldly and unwholesome things of the past.

Which I presume RobertK disagrees with?

as the Sayadaw points out there is no such 'distinct element ' as miccha sati.
why is it given that name in the suttas that talk about the wrong path.
this is because the other factors such as miccha-ditthi , miccha-samadhi, etc are actual realities with their 'opposites' samma-ditthi, samma-sammadhi and so on.It destroys tHE symmetry of the sutta to exclude sati.

In the sallekha sutta commentary (which I think thE sayadaw took some points from)it says about miccha-sati that
In truth, miccha sati is not
specific to a particular dhamma, but it is a name for the 4
akusala khandha, which arises in one who thinks of the
past. When the Buddha said, "Bhikkhu, the Tatagatha
said that there is miccha sati not that there isn't.
There is sati in those who thinks of gaining sons, gaining'"O
The Buddha meant the
arising of the fake (artificial, untrue, etc.) sati..

I toOk this from a ThaI translation so it might be a bit clumsy
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Postby robertk » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:32 pm

sorry I didnt see the term right recollection in the Commentary translation?
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Re: Can Mindfulness be unpleasant?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:06 pm

robertk wrote:sorry I didnt see the term right recollection in the Commentary translation?

if you do happen upon a description which answers this I would be interested.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5737
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

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