Samvega

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Samvega

Postby cooran » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:32 am

Hello all,

I thought it might be a good idea to transfer references to one of my favourite topics from elsewhere to here:


Samvega means a sense of urgency to escape the round of meaningless existence; and pasada, a clarity and serene confidence that allows one to proceed confidently towards the goal without lapsing into despair.

I am fairly certain samvega doesn't mean panic or anxiety attacks, or any strong uncontrolled emotion ~ but something like a steady and focused determination ....

Suttas about Samvega:
Samyutta Nikaya III.25 Pabbatopama Sutta 'The Simile of the Mountains'
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/samyutta/sn3-25.php
Nipata II.10 Utthana Sutta 'On Vigilance'
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5354/snp2-10.htm
Anguttara Nikaya III.91 Accayika Sutta 'Urgent'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an...3.091.than.html
Anguttara Nikaya V.77-80 Anagata-bhayani Suttas 'The Discourses on
Future Dangers' (four consecutive suttas)
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/anguttara/an5-77.php

Venerable Ledi Sayādaw Four Verses on Samvega
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Ledi/Samvega/samvega.html

A modern day condition for Samvega?
http://www.antiwar.com/

And my favourite yet again - sorry, but there's no link - I just
think this translation is much more elegant than the one at ATI.
Majjhima Nikaya 131 Bhaddekaratta Sutta 'A Single Excellent Night'
(Bhikkhus Nanomoli and Bodhi trans.)
"Let not a person revive the past
Or on the future build his hopes;
For the past has been left behind
And the future has not been reached.
Instead with insight let him see
Each presently arisen state;
Let him know that and be sure of it,
Invincibly, unshakeably.
Today the effort must be made;
Tomorrow Death may come, who knows?
No bargain with Mortality
Can keep him and his hordes away,
But one who dwells thus ardently,
Relentlessly, by day, by night -
It is he, the Peaceful Sage has said,
Who has had a single excellent night."

'Affirming the Truths of the Heart' The Buddhist Teachings on Samvega & Pasada ~ Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha084.htm


From Dhammanando Bhikkhu:

Here are some verses from the Theragāthā and Therīgāthā in which various arahant bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs describe the circumstances in which they experienced saṃvega. I have taken K.R. Norman's prose renderings (Elders' Verses I & II), but left saṃvega in Pali and made many changes for readability.

Usabha Thera

Putting over my shoulder a robe the colour of mango sprouts, sitting on an elephant's neck, I entered a village to beg.

Descending from the elephant's shoulder, then I experienced saṃvega; I was agitated, then calm, and the destruction of the cankers was attained by me.

Uruveḷa Kassapa Thera

Seeing the miracles of the famous Gotama, I did not at once fall down before him, being deceived by envy and pride.

Knowing my thoughts, the Charioteer of Men roused me. Then there arose in me amazing, hair-raising saṃvega.

Then, coming to despise the little supernormal power I had as a Jaṭila, I went forth in the Conqueror's Dispensation.

Mahāpanthaka Thera

When I first saw the Teacher who has no fear from any quarter, saṃvega came upon me, having seen the best of men.

Raṭṭhapāla Thera

Possessed of faith I went forth in the Teaching of the Conqueror. My going forth was not unfruitful; free from debt I eat my food.

Regarding sensual pleasures as a thing on fire, and gold as a knife, seeing pain from the time of entry into the womb, and great fearfulness in hells,

knowing this peril, then I felt saṃvega. I was agitated, then calm, and the destruction of the cankers was attained by me.

The Teacher has been waited upon by me, the Buddha's Teaching has been done. The heavy burden has been put down; that which leads to renewed existence has been rooted out.

I have obtained that goal for which I went forth from the house to the homeless life: the destruction of all fetters.

And now the nuns...

Sāmā Therī

Twenty-five years had passed since my going forth. I did not attain peace of mind for even one moment.

Not obtaining peace of mind, being without mastery over the mind, then I reached a state of saṃvega, remembering the teaching of the Conqueror.

Delighting in diligence because of many painful dhammas, the destruction of craving has been attained by me. The Buddha's teaching has been done. Today it is the seventh night since my craving dried up.

Mittākālī Therī

Having gone forth in faith from the house to the homeless life, I wandered here and there, greedy for gain and honour.

Having missed the highest goal, I pursued an inferior goal. Falling under the mastery of the defilements, I did not know the goal of the ascetic life.

Then I had saṃvega: while sitting in my little dwelling [the thought arose] "I have entered upon the wrong path, I have come under the mastery of craving. My life is short. Old age and sickness are destroying it. There is no time for me to be careless before this body breaks up."

Seeing as it really is the arising and passing away of the aggregates, I stood up, my mind completely released. The Buddha's teaching has been done.

Vaḍḍha's mother
(though included in the bhikkhunīs' verses this is actually a dialogue between the bhikkhu Vaḍḍha and his mother who attained arahatta before him)

(Vaḍḍha's mother)
"May you not have, Vaḍḍha, at any time, craving for the world. Child, do not be again and again a sharer in pain.

Happily indeed, Vaḍḍha, dwell the sages, free from lust, with doubts cut off, become cool, having attained self-taming, being free of cankers.

O Vaḍḍha, devote yourself to the way practised by seers for the attainment of insight, for making an end of suffering."

(Vaḍḍha)
"Forthrightly indeed you speak this matter to me, mother. Now indeed, I think craving is not found in you, mother."

(Vaḍḍha's mother)
"Whatever formations there be, Vaḍḍha, low, high, or middle, (for them) no craving, even minute, even miniscule, is found in me.

All my cankers were destroyed, while diligent and meditating. The three knowledges have been obtained. The Buddha's teaching has been done."

(Vaḍḍha)
"Truly my mother, on account of her sympathy, applied an excellent goad to me, (namely) verses connected with the highest goal.

Hearing her utterance, the instruction of my mother, I reached a state of saṃvega in the Dhamma, for the attainment of security from bondage.

I, being resolute for exertion, not relaxing day or night, being urged on by my mother, attained supreme peace."

Uppalavaṇṇā Therī

Both of us, mother and daughter, were co-wives. Then I had saṃvega, amazing, hair-raising! Woe upon sensual pleasures, impure, stinking, with many thorns, for which we, mother and daughter, were co-wives.

--------
In the commentaries the most common gloss on sa.mvega is "[insight] knowledge accompanied by dread of wrong-doing, or just dread of wrong-doing itself" ('sa.mvego' ti sahottappa.m ñaa.na.m, ottappameva vaa; e.g., Dhammasanganii Muulatiikaa 135-42).

So that would make it either the mental factor of dread of wrong-doing (ottappa cetasika) or the mental factor of understanding (paññaa cetasika), or both considered together.
-----
The Niddesa to the Attadaṇḍasutta glosses saṃvega with the words:

ubbega: agitation (can be from either from joy or grief).
utrāsa: alarm.
bhaya: fear.
pīḷana: oppression, being pressed on.
ghaṭṭana: shaking.
upaddava: distress.

Abhidhānappadīpikāṭīkā (a 13th century Pali thesaurus) gives the synonyms:
ubbega: agitation.
vimhaya: astonishment, amazement

Dhammasaṅganī:
'saṃvego' ti jātibhayaṃ jarābhayaṃ byādhibhayaṃ maraṇabhayaṃ. saṃvejaniyaṃ ṭhānanti jāti jarā byādhi maraṇaṃ.
'Saṃvega' is fear with respect to birth, ageing, sickness, death. The saṃvega-worthy grounds are birth, ageing, sickness, death.
(Dhs. 234)

Atthasālinī (Dhammasaṅganī Atthakathā):
(saṃvega as proximate cause of viriya)
ussāhalakkhaṇaṃ vīriyaṃ, sahajātānaṃ upatthambhanarasaṃ, asaṃsīdanabhāvapaccupaṭṭhānaṃ, "saṃviggo yoniso padahatī" ti vacanato saṃvegapadaṭṭhānaṃ, vīriyārambhavatthupadaṭṭhānaṃ vā. sammā āraddhaṃ sabbāsaṃ sampattīnaṃ mūlaṃ hotīti daṭṭhabbaṃ.
Energy has exerting as its characteristic, strengthening the co-existent states as function, and opposition to giving way as manifestation. It has been said: "He in whom saṃvega is present exerts himself properly," hence energy has saṃvega, or the basic condition of making energy as proximate cause. Right exertion should be regarded as the root of all attainments.
(DhsA. 121)

Dhammasaṅganī Mūlatīkā:
(this is also the commonest definition in all the ṭīkās to the Suttas)
'saṃvego' ti sahottappaṃ ñāṇaṃ, ottappameva vā.
Saṃvega is a term for [insight] knowledge accompanied by dread of wrong-doing, or just dread of wrong-doing itself
(Dhs-mtīkā. 135-42)

Vibhaṅga Atthakathā:
'aṭṭha saṃvegavatthūni' nāma jātijarābyādhimaraṇāni cattāri, apāyadukkhaṃ pañcamaṃ, atīte vaṭṭamūlakaṃ dukkhaṃ, anāgate vaṭṭamūlakaṃ dukkhaṃ, paccuppanne āhārapariyeṭṭhimūlakaṃ dukkhanti.
Eight grounds for saṃvega: four are birth, ageing, sickness and death; the fifth is the suffering in the lower realms; suffering in the past rooted in the round [of saṃsāra], suffering in the future rooted in the round [of saṃsāra], and suffering in the present rooted in the need to search for nutriment.
(VibhA. 284)

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Samvega

Postby phil » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:30 am

Thanks Chris.

What a coincidence! I was just appreciating Ben's comment on the relation between appamada and samvega and was going to post a note of thanks.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Samvega

Postby phil » Thu Jul 16, 2009 3:25 am

Hi all

I always find it ironic (and probably a sign that I am nowhere near *really* being on the path) that vipaka from wholesome kamma, the pleasant objects that come our way through the sense doors tends to condition carelessness, accomodation, a sense of self pleasure while it is harsh vipaka that arises from unwholesome kamma that is more likely to condition what I take to be samvega. So in a way it seems that our bad kamma conditions samvega more than our good kamma does! But I guess it is unwise, greedy, lazy, careless response to the pleasant vipaka that leads to bad behaviour so....

...now I'm lost.

But most of the time I feel samvega is very weak for me. I'm happy being a human who is learning to be less harmful to myself and others thanks to the Buddha's teaching, and the notion of aiming for human or deva rebirth through continuing to behave wisely is quite strong.

Doesn't feel like samvega. But maybe it is. As Chris said above, samvega, though translated usually as spiritual urgency is not that kind of panicky, self-hateful, self-disgusted "I want out of this whirling craphole (samsara)!" feeling we have after behaving badly. Samvega must be a wholesome kamma so according to Abhidhamma, at least, cannot be accompanied by unpleasant mental feeling?

Good topic to discuss further.

Metta,

Phil

p.s haha how do you like that "whirling :toilet: craphole"for samsara? Me like. :tongue:
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Samvega

Postby phil » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:05 am

Oops

Self-correction. Didn't notice this was in "Classical."

I withdraw the toilet icon and all other personal reflections. Back to the texts!


Metta,

Phil

p.s I could keep just one point. Samvega is, according to the texts, a wholesome dhamma and therefore cannot be accompanied by unpleasant mental factors...correct?
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Samvega

Postby phil » Thu Jul 16, 2009 5:07 am

phil wrote: p.s I could keep just one point. Samvega is, according to the texts, a wholesome dhamma and therefore cannot be accompanied by unpleasant mental factors...correct?


I know this caused a lot of disagreement at another forum. How could samvega be a wholesome factor, and therefore free of unpleasant mental feeling, when aspects like "shaking", "fear" and "grief" (see Chris' post) involved?


Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Samvega

Postby phil » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:36 am

Chris wrote:

--------
In the commentaries the most common gloss on sa.mvega is "[insight] knowledge accompanied by dread of wrong-doing, or just dread of wrong-doing itself" ('sa.mvego' ti sahottappa.m ñaa.na.m, ottappameva vaa; e.g., Dhammasanganii Muulatiikaa 135-42).

So that would make it either the mental factor of dread of wrong-doing (ottappa cetasika) or the mental factor of understanding (paññaa cetasika), or both considered together.

-----

Is this"insight knowledge" a refined attainment, one of the vipassana-nana (sp?) or a more mundane kind of insight? If it is the former I will know that samvega is foreign to my mind stream and what I take to be samvega is just a kind of clinging to something or other. It could be that samvega is much more rarefied than we'd like to think, at least according to the commentaries which are the unquestionable authority when we are in the section of Dhammawheel, at least!

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Samvega

Postby vishy89 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:25 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,

I thought it might be a good idea to transfer references to one of my favourite topics from elsewhere to here:.......................

--------
In the commentaries the most common gloss on sa.mvega is "[insight] knowledge accompanied by dread of wrong-doing, or just dread of wrong-doing itself" ('sa.mvego' ti sahottappa.m ñaa.na.m, ottappameva vaa; e.g., Dhammasanganii Muulatiikaa 135-42).

So that would make it either the mental factor of dread of wrong-doing (ottappa cetasika) or the mental factor of understanding (paññaa cetasika), or both considered together.
-----
The Niddesa to the Attadaṇḍasutta glosses saṃvega with the words:

ubbega: agitation (can be from either from joy or grief).
utrāsa: alarm.
bhaya: fear.
pīḷana: oppression, being pressed on.
ghaṭṭana: shaking.
upaddava: distress.

Abhidhānappadīpikāṭīkā (a 13th century Pali thesaurus) gives the synonyms:
ubbega: agitation.
vimhaya: astonishment, amazement

Dhammasaṅganī:
'saṃvego' ti jātibhayaṃ jarābhayaṃ byādhibhayaṃ maraṇabhayaṃ. saṃvejaniyaṃ ṭhānanti jāti jarā byādhi maraṇaṃ.
'Saṃvega' is fear with respect to birth, ageing, sickness, death. The saṃvega-worthy grounds are birth, ageing, sickness, death.
(Dhs. 234)

Atthasālinī (Dhammasaṅganī Atthakathā):
(saṃvega as proximate cause of viriya)
ussāhalakkhaṇaṃ vīriyaṃ, sahajātānaṃ upatthambhanarasaṃ, asaṃsīdanabhāvapaccupaṭṭhānaṃ, "saṃviggo yoniso padahatī" ti vacanato saṃvegapadaṭṭhānaṃ, vīriyārambhavatthupadaṭṭhānaṃ vā. sammā āraddhaṃ sabbāsaṃ sampattīnaṃ mūlaṃ hotīti daṭṭhabbaṃ.
Energy has exerting as its characteristic, strengthening the co-existent states as function, and opposition to giving way as manifestation. It has been said: "He in whom saṃvega is present exerts himself properly," hence energy has saṃvega, or the basic condition of making energy as proximate cause. Right exertion should be regarded as the root of all attainments.
(DhsA. 121)

Dhammasaṅganī Mūlatīkā:
(this is also the commonest definition in all the ṭīkās to the Suttas)
'saṃvego' ti sahottappaṃ ñāṇaṃ, ottappameva vā.
Saṃvega is a term for [insight] knowledge accompanied by dread of wrong-doing, or just dread of wrong-doing itself
(Dhs-mtīkā. 135-42)

Vibhaṅga Atthakathā:
'aṭṭha saṃvegavatthūni' nāma jātijarābyādhimaraṇāni cattāri, apāyadukkhaṃ pañcamaṃ, atīte vaṭṭamūlakaṃ dukkhaṃ, anāgate vaṭṭamūlakaṃ dukkhaṃ, paccuppanne āhārapariyeṭṭhimūlakaṃ dukkhanti.
Eight grounds for saṃvega: four are birth, ageing, sickness and death; the fifth is the suffering in the lower realms; suffering in the past rooted in the round [of saṃsāra], suffering in the future rooted in the round [of saṃsāra], and suffering in the present rooted in the need to search for nutriment.
(VibhA. 284)

metta
Chris



Thanks . Chris. Where do I get-to download preferably-
Dhammasangani with English translation.
Vibhanga Atthakatha with English transl
Attha salini with eng transl
Abhidhānappadīpikāṭīkā ( with english transl)

I have devanagari original of Dhs, Atthasalini and Vibhanga but w/o translation. I am not able to make much headway with them!

Metta
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Re: Samvega

Postby cooran » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:44 am

Hello Vishy89, all,

I can only help you with a download of the Dhammasangani - in this thread from Ajahn Dhammanando:

Dhammasangani
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1046

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Samvega

Postby vishy89 » Sat Dec 04, 2010 12:14 am

Thank you.

Metta
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Re: Samvega

Postby rowyourboat » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:26 am

Phil

Samvega has to be at the right 'tension'- otherwise it falls into 'udacca' -agitation- hence the shaking :tongue:

When you tone down the agitation there should be pure smooth energy to engage in the practice.

I suggest that you look up the insight knowledges and see if the one above is one of them ;)

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Samvega

Postby phil » Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:13 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Phil

Samvega has to be at the right 'tension'- otherwise it falls into 'udacca' -agitation- hence the shaking :tongue:

When you tone down the agitation there should be pure smooth energy to engage in the practice.

I suggest that you look up the insight knowledges and see if the one above is one of them ;)

with metta

Matheesha



I see, the old lute string. In the sutta in which that simile is used I believe there is a bhikkhu who is experiencing an intense urgency to practice and does walking meditation until his feet bleed, but the Buddha tells him of the lute string, too tight and it will snap, too loose and it can't produce music..

Nice to see you again, by the way. Your posts helped me a lot a few years back, elsewhere.

Metta,

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)
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Re: Samvega

Postby dhammapal » Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:39 am

Hi,

See the Upajjhatthana Sutta (read aloud)

On a positive note, I like this Dhammapada story quote:
"When the bhikkhus heard about this, they asked the Buddha,

"How is it that, in the case of this brahmin, a good deed done at present bears fruit immediately?"

To them the Buddha replied:

"If the brahmin had offered his outer garment in the first watch of the night, he would have been rewarded with sixteen of each kind; if he had made his offering during the middle watch, he would have been rewarded with eight of each kind; since he had made his offering only during the last watch of the night, he was rewarded with only four of each kind."

So, when one wants to give in charity, one should do so quickly; if one procrastinates, the reward comes slowly and only sparingly. Also, if one is too slow in doing good deeds, one may not be able to do it at all, for the mind tends to take delight in doing evil.

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 116
One should make haste in doing good deeds;
One should restrain one's mind from evil;
For the mind of one who is slow in doing good tends to delight in doing evil.”
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/dh ... lekasataka
From: The Dhammapada Stories
Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A.,
Burma Pitaka Association 1986
Source: http://www.nibbana.com


also see my Samvega Yahoo Group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Samvega

With metta / dhammapal.
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