The Definition of nāma rūpa

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The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:51 am

What is the definition of nāmarūpa according to Classical Theravada?

I'm mostly looking for the definition according to the commentaries, ideally the definition according to the three lives interpretation of paticcasamuppāda and the moment to moment version found in the Abhidhamma


Thanks in advance :)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby robertk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:01 pm

Sammohavinodni pages 244 - 254. Ip245 "Twelve membered section with two members incomplete" because it is stated with mentality in the place of mentailty-materialty (nama-rupa) and sixth base in place of the six-fold base."

This is because in one moment we can't have all 6 sense bases working simultaneously.

p246
"and because only a single kind of contact is composed within a single conscious moment here, therefore taking the appropriate sense base as its condition, it is said "with mentality as condition the sense base' giving the mind base alone in the place of the 6fold base. p246 "instead of saying 'formations'[in the plural] as in the Suttanta division, sankharo [a formation] is said in the singular. Why is that? Because it refers to single conscious moments. For there [in the Suttanta division] the structure of conditions of a number of conscious moments is explained. here that of a single conscious moment is undertaken. And since there is not a plurality of volitions in a single conscious moment, 'formation' is said instead of saying formations" p246 "And admittedly the clause 'with a formation as condition, consciousness' is also stated here; but for the purpose of showing the distinction between cause and fruit and for the purpose of completing the factors it is taken again here. For there a formation(sankharo) in particular is the cause of that, and mentality in general is the fruit. But here mentality in general is its cause and contact in particular is the fruit. But because sorrow lamentation etc are not all produced in a single conscious moment , and do not occur in every instance where consciousness occurs or in every consciousness, there fore they are not included. But birth, ageing and death , although not measurable by conscious moments,a re nevertheless included because they exist within the conscious moment, and also for the purpose of completing the factors
."endquote from sammohavinodani

------

Iggleden in his introduction to the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis, Pali text society)writes about the Paticca. section : p xxxviii "the whole system of analysis with its very specific definitions is designed to show that in the same way as the general cyclic continuity of process, stated in the suttanta analysis, applies to existence as a whole, so also the arising of one state of consciousness as being dependent for its becoming to be on the resultant of a preceeding state, and that the resultant of that present state is to be the root cause of a future conscious state, demonstrates the action of that same law. Paticcasammuppada exemplifies most clearly the selfcontainedness of the Buddha's teaching. External agency does not come into the question of existence, either in its broadest or in its most detailed aspects. All is the working of Causal relationship, automatic, capable of infinite variety and of incomparable continuity. Only the Buddha's have shown how this continuity is to be broken."endquote
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby robertk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:09 pm

so in most places nama rupa means mind and matter. there are a couple of places though when rupa could be better translated as 'form', but I cant remember where off hand
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:30 pm

thanks buddy :)


P.S whats the sammohavinodani, is it a commentary text?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:58 pm

clw_uk wrote:What is the definition of nāmarūpa according to Classical Theravada?

What is matter? Never mind!
What is mind? No matter!
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:03 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
clw_uk wrote:What is the definition of nāmarūpa according to Classical Theravada?

What is matter? Never mind!
What is mind? No matter!



Always liked that phrase lol

:sage:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby culaavuso » Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:whats the sammohavinodani, is it a commentary text?


According to Beyond the Tipitaka: A Field Guide, the Sammohavinodani is a commentary written by Buddhaghosa on the Vibhanga, the second book of the Abhidhamma pitaka.

An english translation is available from the Pali Text Society with the translated title Dispeller of Delusion
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:18 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
clw_uk wrote:What is the definition of nāmarūpa according to Classical Theravada?

What is matter? Never mind!
What is mind? No matter!



Always liked that phrase lol

:sage:

Yes me too. It cuts straight to the chase. I find any intellectual attempt to define and differentiate mind and matter, brain and mind, mind and heart, or whatever quite fruitless.

I remember a simile about how it was more difficult to differentiate and separate the five aggregates than to analyse the water in the oceans and decide, “This water came from the Ganges, this from the Yamuna, and the other great rivers.”
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby SarathW » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:10 am

Though I agree with Ven. Pesala, the reason why we study Nama, Rupa is to understand Anatta.
Anatta can be understood in two ways. Analysis (intellectual ) and through mediation (experiential, When mediator acquires Nama Rupa Parichda Nana).
The English translation Mind and Matter does not convey the real meaning.
Please understand the following which is based on Abhidamma and Sutta (five aggregate) explanations.

====================
Four Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhammaa)
1)Consciousness (Citta)
2)The mental factors (Cetasika) i.e Feeling (Vedana) and Perception (Sanna) which are arise as a result of consciousness (samkhara)
3)Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness. The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)
4)Nirvana (Nibbaana) – Nirvana is an unconditioned reality. All other three are conditioned realities.
There are four stage of sainthood – Stream-winner (Sotapatti), Once-Returner (Sakadagami), Non-Returner (Anagami), Worthy (Arahatta)

No:3 is Rupa and the rest are Nama.

==================
Rupa:
Take an ice cube in to your hand. You can see the ice cube. It is called Sanna.
You feel the cold which is called Tejo (heat).
(please also note that feeling (Vedana) is arising here as well)
Then you feel the grossness of the ice cube, which is called Pathavi (earth)
Then the ice start to melt and which is called Apo (cohesion or water) and the water start to evaporate which is called Vayo (air)

The above four propeties are depend on each other.
For example Fire got more of heat (Tejo) and less of other factors.

Nama Rupa:

Human and animal body. They are not separable hence they arise together in conception. There are 17 thoght momnets for the Rupa elment and one thought moment for the Nama element.

This is a very complex subject and hope above may have some help for you.
:)
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Re: The Definition of nāma rūpa

Postby Ananda26 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:25 pm

clw_uk wrote:What is the definition of nāmarūpa according to Classical Theravada?

I'm mostly looking for the definition according to the commentaries, ideally the definition according to the three lives interpretation of paticcasamuppāda and the moment to moment version found in the Abhidhamma


Thanks in advance :)


mentality and form

namarupa is included in Middle Length Discourse #9. Discourse on Right View.
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