Need help with a reference.

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Need help with a reference.

Postby Andre » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:39 pm

Hello,
Before start I ask apologize for my bad english. Actually I'm brazilian and I'm not so good in write in english.
This is my first post here but I've been reading this forum about 1 year.

I was reading Joaquin Perez-Remon book - Self and non-self in early buddhism - and I had problem with a reference.

In the text, Perez-Remon argue about a dialogue between Buddha and a brahmana. It's about the existence or not of the self in an action. The reference that I found in the book is AIII, p.53, Chakkanipato, 4, 8, 1 and 4.
With this reference I am not able to find the translated sutta.

Anyone could help me, please?

I'm doing my last academic work about anatta doctrine and I really need to find this translation.

ps: If someone have the book the quote made by Perez-Remon is in the end of the page 53.
Andre
 
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Re: Need help with a reference.

Postby culaavuso » Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:29 am

Andre wrote:In the text, Perez-Remon argue about a dialogue between Buddha and a brahmana. It's about the existence or not of the self in an action. The reference that I found in the book is AIII, p.53, Chakkanipato, 4, 8, 1 and 4.


If you could provide some distinctive quotation from the text, that might be helpful. Otherwise, it sounds like it might be the Anguttara Nikaya, Chakka Nipata that you mean. Is the reference that you typed in exactly as it appears verbatim in the book?

You might try exploring Sutta Central to find this text. There are a few different ways of referencing suttas, one of which is based on the PTS texts nikaya, volume, and page. So for example "A iii 53" could mean Anguttara Nikaya, volume 3, page 53. According to Sutta Central, that would be Pañcasampadā with a translation available at AN 5.46. However, this is not in the Chakka Nipata, which begins at A iii 279, which can be seen at Chakka Nipata. Another way of referencing suttas is by nikaya, section/book, and sutta number. However, in that case the reference would have 2 numbers and not the 4 that you've given.

Possibly also of interest, the Tika Nipata contains the brahmana vagga starting at AN i 155, which is also known as AN 3.51.

In terms of suttas that involve a discussion with a Brahman about self or not self and action, the only one that comes immediately to mind matching your description without any further quotes is actually in the Samyutta Nikaya, SN 12.46
SN 12.46: Annatra Sutta: A Certain Brahman wrote:Dwelling at Savatthi... Then a certain brahman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What now, Master Gotama: Is the one who acts the same one who experiences [the results of the act]?"

[The Buddha:] "[To say,] 'The one who acts is the same one who experiences,' is one extreme."

[The brahman:] "Then, Master Gotama, is the one who acts someone other than the one who experiences?"

[The Buddha:] "[To say,] 'The one who acts is someone other than the one who experiences,' is the second extreme. Avoiding both of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by means of the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
culaavuso
 
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Re: Need help with a reference.

Postby Andre » Mon Jan 27, 2014 1:41 am

Thanks for the answer, Culaavuso. :namaste:

I'll check the site and the references that you indicated.

I guess the citation model that Perez-Remon uses is the PTS. He's always saying something about Mr. and Mrs. Rhys Davids.

culaavuso wrote:If you could provide some distinctive quotation from the text, that might be helpful. Otherwise, it sounds like it might be the Anguttara Nikaya, Chakka Nipata that you mean. Is the reference that you typed in exactly as it appears verbatim in the book?


Yes, the reference which i typed is exactly as it appears in the book.

About the quotation of the text...here it is.

Perez-Remon is trying o defend the reality of the moral agent in early buddhism

The specific part is:

Perez-Remon says:

Intensive effort with a view to attain moral perfection presupposes the possibility of action on the part of the self. This is reported as propounded by the Buddh in a dialogu between him and a brahmana recorded in the Anguttara. The dialogue begins with the words of the brahmana:

I, friend Gotama, am of this opinion, of this view,
'There is no action of the self (nattji attakaro) and no action of another (natthi parakaro).'

Then Perez-Remon says: The Buddha answers that he had never seen or heard anyone having such opinion and view. The opinion seems to refer mainly to moral matters, but the Buddha argues by propounding some external actions wich no one could deny without making a fool of himself:

How can one who (sayam) goes forward, who himself (sayam) goes backward speak thus, 'there is no action of the self and no action of another?'

Hope this can help.

Thank you again.
Andre
 
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Re: Need help with a reference.

Postby santa100 » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:28 am

Probably AN 6.38:
“Venerable Gotama, I am one of such a doctrine, of such a view: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer.’”[1]

“I have not, brahman, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself [2] — say: ‘There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer’? What do you think, brahmin, is there an element or principle of initiating or beginning an action?” ~~ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html ~~
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Re: Need help with a reference.

Postby Andre » Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:21 am

Wowww..Thank you Santa100 :clap: :clap: :clap: :thanks: :thanks: :thanks:
That´s it!!

Thanks to you and culaavuso for your help.
Andre
 
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