Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:08 am

Let's say you've given up on nibbana in this lifetime. Which plane of existence offers the best opportunity to reach nibbana in the next lifetime? Should one aim to be reborn in the Brahma or Deva planes, in the formless realm, or as a human?
Jeffrey
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:08 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby walkart » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:15 am

Humain realm.
walkart
 
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:13 pm

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby SarathW » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:46 am

The best thing is not to give up on Nibbna.
If you strive to attain Nibbna it will naturally will take you to a suitable rebirth.
Take care of your action, the result will take care of itself.
:)
SarathW
 
Posts: 2724
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:51 am

Yes, Sarath, I agree. But that's not the problem as presented. Is existence on one plane more (or less) favorable to the attainment of nibanna than another?
Jeffrey
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:08 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby bananaporridge » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:02 am

In which case "humain realm" without the 'i' is correct as I understand it.
bananaporridge
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:24 am

Sutta reference, perhaps?
Jeffrey
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:08 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby santa100 » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:32 pm

Jeffrey wrote:Sutta reference, perhaps?

Maybe SN 35.135. While there's no explicit mentioning of human as the best realm, the general idea is there. Ven. Thanissaro's footnote:
The message here is that in realms where sense objects are totally disagreeable or totally agreeable it is very difficult to practice the holy life, for in the former, one is too distracted by pain; in the latter, too distracted by pleasure.
santa100
 
Posts: 1603
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby daverupa » Wed Jun 25, 2014 2:04 pm

The point is not that the human realm is best, but that NOW is best because of the conditions which obtain & can be noted. Stepping to the side to consider comparative cosmologies and their relative merits is to take this clarion call to mindfulness and calm awareness right now, and proliferate upon it.

:shrug:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4505
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:09 pm

It seems indeed the point is the human realm is best as it affords better opportunities. Santa cited the Khana sutta (thank you!), about which there is more discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8715

To this we might add the Chiggala Sutta on the rarity of human birth in a world with a Tathghata: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Jeffrey
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:08 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:13 pm

The Suddhavasa (Pure Abodes). Enlightenment guaranteed.

The pure abodes are inhabited by anagamis who attain enlightenment there in the pure abodes. Attainment there is through merit and proficiency in fourth jhana or higher.

The formless realms are not good places to be. You spend up to 84,000 aeons in something close to nothingness and then fall away to something lower.

Full list of the traditional cosmology: http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... _existence
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8283
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Jeffrey » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:32 pm

Thanks for that, David. Those interested in a sutta reference might look here:

57. "Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through the round of rebirths.' But it is impossible to find a realm in the round that I have not already [82] passed through in this long journey, except for the gods of the Pure Abodes; and had I passed through the round as a god in the Pure Abodes, I would never have returned to this world.[20]

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#fnt-20


Interesting to note the connection between the Pure Abodes and Pure Land theology, in which one is in fact encouraged to aspire to this realm.

So I suppose the Pure Abodes would rank first, human second, as preferred planes of rebirth?
Jeffrey
 
Posts: 71
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:08 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby ihrjordan » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:39 pm

I used to always tell myself that I would only strive to become sotapanna and then quit my practice because I was scared of attaining Nibbana..But the more I practice the more I want to attain release. I actually look back and laugh at how childish that goal of mine was :tongue:
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
User avatar
ihrjordan
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:42 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby bananaporridge » Wed Jun 25, 2014 3:58 pm

I responded to the original OP referring to giving up on nibbana in the present life,which could involve a variety of circumstance and meaning.So to qualify :human realm as stated ,unless one is a non-returner.So what exactly do you mean by giving up on nibbana?
bananaporridge
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun May 18, 2014 7:26 pm

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby LXNDR » Wed Jun 25, 2014 8:30 pm

human realm is ideal, unexcelled, wondrous, blameless

unless you are born somewhere in Africa or in slums wheresoever

i guess i know why Buddha wouldn't appear in higher worlds with the the Four Noble Truths and the liberation gospel, because due to the amount of hapiness experienced up there, no one would be interested
the requisite condition for the possibility of liberation is suffering
LXNDR
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby SarathW » Wed Jun 25, 2014 9:46 pm

Re-birth in Africa or in a slum is not a problem as far as you are a human.
I had some encounters with slum kids some years ago and they were very intelligent and were very nice kids.
What is the base of your reasoning?
SarathW
 
Posts: 2724
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Mkoll » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:09 pm

Jeffrey wrote:So I suppose the Pure Abodes would rank first, human second, as preferred planes of rebirth?

Yes. But attaining to the Pure Abodes requires an excellent and diligent practice to eliminate the first 5 fetters and attain non-returning. I would never describe that as "settling for less".
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Mkoll » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:12 pm

SarathW wrote:Re-birth in Africa or in a slum is not a problem as far as you are a human.
I had some encounters with slum kids some years ago and they were very intelligent and were very nice kids.
What is the base of your reasoning?

Well if you are born and then die before you're five years old, that doesn't give you much of a chance to do much anything. According to the source below, that happened in 15 or so African countries to 10-18% of children per country in 2012. Those are distressingly high numbers.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH. ... &sort=desc
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby LXNDR » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:14 am

SarathW wrote:Re-birth in Africa or in a slum is not a problem as far as you are a human.
I had some encounters with slum kids some years ago and they were very intelligent and were very nice kids.
What is the base of your reasoning?


were they happy, or their parents?
LXNDR
 
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed May 28, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby SarathW » Thu Jun 26, 2014 5:29 am

Mkoll wrote:
SarathW wrote:Re-birth in Africa or in a slum is not a problem as far as you are a human.
I had some encounters with slum kids some years ago and they were very intelligent and were very nice kids.
What is the base of your reasoning?

Well if you are born and then die before you're five years old, that doesn't give you much of a chance to do much anything. According to the source below, that happened in 15 or so African countries to 10-18% of children per country in 2012. Those are distressingly high numbers.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH. ... &sort=desc


How about the millions abortions in Western World.
Those children are not even lucky enough to see the day light.
What about other killings in western worlds?
SarathW
 
Posts: 2724
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Best rebirth: settling for less than nibbana

Postby Mkoll » Thu Jun 26, 2014 6:09 am

I'm not going to get into a debate about abortion, sorry.

I just posted cold, hard facts. Let's leave it at that.
Peace,
James
User avatar
Mkoll
 
Posts: 4137
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Next

Return to Classical Theravāda

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests