Knowing body processes as basis for knowing mental processes

[phil]

Hi all

In a notebook I came across this quotation from Bhikhu Bodhi to explain why there is such a great stress laid on contemplation of the body: "Because the meditative comprehension of the impermanent, painful and selfless nature of body processes forms the indispensable basis for a corresponding comprehension of mental processes."
This sounds sensible, but is there any specific teaching like this in the Canon?

Thanks

Phil

[phil]

Hi all

Hmmm, Interesting that in this highly sutta-literate community no one knows of such a teaching in the Canon. I think it's a good example of how some people (me in this case) might place too much value on the opinions of the venerable Bodhi just because he is in the position of translating the texts.

One could just say "well, see for yourself" about it but I am not a "see for yourself" kind of guy, I want to know what the texts say. (Please don't quote me the kalama sutta. )

Phil

[mikenz66]

Hi Phil,

It's hardly Bhikkhu Bodhi's idea. It's something I've learned from just about every teacher I've paid any attention to and to me it is very obviously the way the Buddha taught in many suttas.

It's very clearly implied by the progression in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta (MN10) or Anapanasati Sutta (MN118), or the Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN119). These all start with body contemplations and move on into the mind.


Mike

[tiltbillings]

Hi all

Hmmm, Interesting that in this highly sutta-literate community no one knows of such a teaching in the Canon.

Maybe it is time for you to get sutta literate.

[randall]

The Girimananda Sutta, w/commentary from the Saratthasamuccaya Sutta

[phil]

Hi all

Hmmm, Interesting that in this highly sutta-literate community no one knows of such a teaching in the Canon.

Maybe it is time for you to get sutta literate.

Ouch. Your words hurt. (Not the first time for me.)

Becoming sutta literate is a gradual process. I'm grateful that there are people here who know a lot more than I do and that's why this community is important. Remember, asking questions about Dhamma and sharing knowledge of Dhamma are said to be deeds of merit.


Phil

[phil]

Hi Phil,

It's hardly Bhikkhu Bodhi's idea. It's something I've learned from just about every teacher I've paid any attention to and to me it is very obviously the way the Buddha taught in many suttas.

It's very clearly implied by the progression in suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta (MN10) or Anapanasati Sutta (MN118), or the Kayagata-sati Sutta (MN119). These all start with body contemplations and move on into the mind.



Mike

Hi Mike

Thanks. I've seen many suttas that praise the primary importance of mindfulness in the body, the long series in AN for example about he who doesn't establish mindfulness in the body doesn't this or that, and of course I know that it is the first satipatthana, but I hadn't really appreciated that contemplation of physical processes was said to come first as condition for mindfulness of mental processes. I will now consider that when I come across those suttas, thanks. Indeed, I guess it is implied in all those suttas that praise the primary importance of mindfulness of the body. Implied, not explicitly stated unless I have missed it so far which is quite possible!

Phil

[phil]

The Girimananda Sutta, w/commentary from the Saratthasamuccaya Sutta

Hi Randal, thanks. Do you point this out because in the contemplation of not-self (the second contemplation) only the rupas are considered (for example, the ear and sound) but not the nama. (Hearing consciousness)

Is it to be understood that the ten contemplations given are to be done in that order, or are they contemplations that could arise at differernt moments according to suitability?

Sorry if I'm missing something obvious.

Phil

[Zom]

Hmmm, Interesting that in this highly sutta-literate community no one knows of such a teaching in the Canon. I think it's a good example of how some people (me in this case) might place too much value on the opinions of the venerable Bodhi just because he is in the position of translating the texts.

There are no suttas that say this directly. However we one can make such statement from personal practice and from some sutta passages that say about interconnectedness of mind and body.

[phil]

Hmmm, Interesting that in this highly sutta-literate community no one knows of such a teaching in the Canon. I think it's a good example of how some people (me in this case) might place too much value on the opinions of the venerable Bodhi just because he is in the position of translating the texts.

There are no suttas that say this directly. However we one can make such statement from personal practice and from some sutta passages that say about interconnectedness of mind and body.

Thanks Zom. Yes, I do imagine that meditation practice would reveal that to be the case.

Phil

[Zom]

Actually no meditation is needed. When you are angry or when you feel shame, for example, you feel it even with your body - it starts burning. Very easy to notice that. And the interesting thing here is that when body is burning due to some reason - this does not bring mind into angry or shameful state. This shows that these states are not of bodily (material) origin, but of mental.

[phil]

Actually no meditation is needed. When you are angry or when you feel shame, for example, you feel it even with your body - it starts burning. Very easy to notice that. And the interesting thing here is that when body is burning due to some reason - this does not bring mind into angry or shameful state. This shows that these states are not of bodily (material) origin, but of mental.

Hi Zom

I guess in this corner of Dhammawheel we need specific textual references, but thanks.

Thanks all, I will drop it there.

Phil

[santa100]

In a notebook I came across this quotation from Bhikhu Bodhi to explain why there is such a great stress laid on contemplation of the body: "Because the meditative comprehension of the impermanent, painful and selfless nature of body processes forms the indispensable basis for a corresponding comprehension of mental processes."
This sounds sensible, but is there any specific teaching like this in the Canon?

It's mentioned in MN 119 in various paragraphs:

"When anyone has developed & pursued mindfulness immersed in the body, then whichever of the six higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening.

"Monks, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing. Just as whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean, in the same way, whoever develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing.

"Through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here & now.

[bodom]

Also see MN 36. Mahāsaccaka Sutta: The Greater Discourse to Saccaka

   

8. “How, Aggivessana, is one undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind? Here, Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in an untaught ordinary person. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he lusts after pleasure and continues to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he sorrows, grieves, and laments, he weeps beating his breast and becomes distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it invades his mind and remains because body is not developed. And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it invades his mind and remains because mind is not developed. Anyone in whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling invades his mind and remains because body is not developed, and arisen painful feeling invades his mind and remains because mind is not developed, is thus undeveloped in body and undeveloped in mind.

    9. “And how, Aggivessana, is one developed in body and developed in mind? Here, Aggivessana, pleasant feeling arises in a well-taught noble disciple. Touched by that pleasant feeling, he does not lust after pleasure or continue to lust after pleasure. That pleasant feeling of his ceases. With the cessation of the pleasant feeling, painful feeling arises. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not sorrow, grieve, and lament, he does not weep beating his breast and become distraught. When that pleasant feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed. And when that painful feeling has arisen in him, it does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed. Anyone in whom, in this double manner, arisen pleasant feeling [240] does not invade his mind and remain because body is developed, and arisen painful feeling does not invade his mind and remain because mind is developed, is thus developed in body and developed in mind.”

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... caka-sutta

[phil]

Hi bodom, thanks.

That's a good example. Understanding bodily pain as condition for understanding (being liberated from) the second dart of mental suffering that usually compounds it.

I think I can focus the point of my question better now, it's the word "indispensable."
Certainly many examples ( as have been provided) of understanding bodily processes as basis for understanding mental processes. But is this indispensable? Can we really say (as is implied by Bhikkhu Bodhi's statement I think) that without meditative practices in which awareness in the body is established first there cannot be understanding of mental processes?

Thanks

Phil